Timeout or Illegal Substitution

[wisref2]

This is a judgement situation so I'd like some feedback.

Play: As the referee is counting guys in A's huddle, a player leaves and runs to the sideline. As the referee ends his count, he finds they still have 11 players on the field - so they had 12 in the huddle. As he blows his whistle and throws the flag, his linesman also blows his whistle - A's coach called a timeout as the referee was reaching for his flag.

What's your call? Penalize the illegal substitution or wave off the flag and grant the timeout.

Does the game situation matter? In this case it was 29-8 late in the game that was supposed to be a nailbiter between cross town rivals (the coach calling the TO is behind), 10,000 people in the stands and a lot of subs being run in and out.

I waved off the flag and granted the timout. To me, the game situation didn't influence my decision. Yes, the infraction had already occured, but I figured since the coach was willing to buy his way out of a penalty, I'd let him do it.

[grantsrc]

First, remember that having 12 in the huddle is not a foul according to NFHS. Now, if the replaced playing didn't leave the huddle immediately, then yes, you would have a foul.

But, I kind of agree with your philosophy about "buying" his way out of the foul. You could say that you didn't notice him requesting the timeout. Or, if a wing guy saw the request before you flagged him, then I think you made a good decision. On the other hand, if you flagged him then the coach requested the timeout, I would not disregard the flag. I would penalize him and ask if he still wanted the TO.

[wisref2]

Thanks for the clarification. Yes, it was clearly a situation in which a replaced player did not leave the huddle immediately.

[whaddayouknow]

My thought is that if you did not see the substitute enter the field, but only noticed the replaced player leaving during the time in which it takes to count the huddle, this is probably not really an illegal substitute.

[grantsrc]

I think I changed my mind. I don't know about buying his way out of the penalty. If someone on the crew noticed the request prior to the foul being called, then I think I would be good with not calling the IS. But if as I am calling it then the coach starts requesting it, then I would go with the IS. It would have to be close to simultaneous for me to not call the IS.

[ref18]

Well, having 12 in the huddle is legal, and a timeout can only be called from a player on the field, so I've got absolutely no reason for a flag or whistle

[The Roamin' Umpire]

Coaches cannot "buy" their way out of a substitution penalty by calling a timeout. If the replaced player is dawdling, he should be flagged.

If you do flag this, definitely ask the coach if he still wants the timeout.

[l3will]

Okay, reverse the situation... the coach calls timeout
then you notice his team has twelve in the huddle and since
you didn't notice anyone come in... he must have been
there awhile.

Are you going to throw the flag then?



[Edited by l3will on Sep 11th, 2005 at 09:18 PM]

[MJT]

Originally posted by l3will
Okay, reverse the situation... the coach calls timeout
then you notice his team has twelve in the huddle and since
you didn't notice anyone come in... he must have been
there awhile.

Are you going to throw the flag then?



[Edited by l3will on Sep 11th, 2005 at 09:18 PM]

If he calls it and I give it to him and then I notice 12, he is ok, but if I notice it 1st, we have an IS foul. No buy-out.

[Snake~eyes]

Originally posted by MJT

If he calls it and I give it to him and then I notice 12, he is ok, but if I notice it 1st, we have an IS foul. No buy-out.

Agreed, I'd ask the coach if he still wants it after we mark off the penalty.

[wisref2]

I'm glad the discussion went this way. In my case that started this thread, the timeout request was pretty much at the same time as I was calling the foul - and I gave him a break.

In regards to the timeout coming before we notice they have 12. I agree with not calling it. But let me play devil's advocate.......

We still have a violation - a replaced player did not leave immediately. There's nothing in the rule that lets the coach avoid the penalty with a timeout. So why are we going to let him do it?

[MJT]

Originally posted by wisref2
I'm glad the discussion went this way. In my case that started this thread, the timeout request was pretty much at the same time as I was calling the foul - and I gave him a break.

In regards to the timeout coming before we notice they have 12. I agree with not calling it. But let me play devil's advocate.......

We still have a violation - a replaced player did not leave immediately. There's nothing in the rule that lets the coach avoid the penalty with a timeout. So why are we going to let him do it?

Well, I guess one way to think about it is a foul becomes a penalty when an official sees it. So if a TO is called before we see a foul, we have no penalty. It would be like a block in the back that occured but was not seen, so even though we had a foul, we had no penalty. In this case, we did not see the IS, and then granted a TO, so now we do not have an IS anymore.

Remember, I said if I see it 1st we will have a penalty and maybe a TO after, but if I don't see the foul 1st, he gets the TO.

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Originally posted by l3will
Okay, reverse the situation... the coach calls timeout
then you notice his team has twelve in the huddle and since
you didn't notice anyone come in... he must have been
there awhile.

Are you going to throw the flag then?



[Edited by l3will on Sep 11th, 2005 at 09:18 PM]

Heck yeah. Just cause he's got TO doesn't mean he can have 12 in the huddle. I had this happen earlier this season in a JV game where there was a TO and when the TO ended, coach and 1 player left to go back to the sideline. I counted and realized we still had 11 on the field, so that other player musta been there awhile. I mentioned it to the captain and let him know that if it happened again, it'd be a penalty. It happened again later. I flagged it. Coach questioned it, and I told him that was the 2nd time that game and that I had warned the captain the first time it happened. He said I shoulda told him. I agreed with him that that may have been the BETTER thing to do, but he took the 5 yards anyhow.

[grantsrc]

Originally posted by Whistles & Stripes
Heck yeah. Just cause he's got TO doesn't mean he can have 12 in the huddle. I had this happen earlier this season in a JV game where there was a TO and when the TO ended, coach and 1 player left to go back to the sideline. I counted and realized we still had 11 on the field, so that other player musta been there awhile. I mentioned it to the captain and let him know that if it happened again, it'd be a penalty. It happened again later. I flagged it. Coach questioned it, and I told him that was the 2nd time that game and that I had warned the captain the first time it happened. He said I shoulda told him. I agreed with him that that may have been the BETTER thing to do, but he took the 5 yards anyhow.

Where was the official that was responsible for this sideline during the TO? This is a perfect example of why it is important to still officiate and focus during dead ball periods. There is no way that this should be penalized because whichever official was responsible for this sideline should have said, "Coach, you may only have 11 in the huddle during a TO." Then this is no longer an issue.

This goes back to the thread about warnings. We need to be aware of how to effectively use warnings and communication when we notice things like this. Bring it to the coaching staff's attention. Let them solve it first. If they don't solve it, then call it. Especially any underclass games. Half they time, they're lucky if they run the right play, let alone all the other stuff we're looking for!

One last thing to remember guys, having 12 in the huddle isn't a penalty. A replaced player not leaving immediately (3-5 seconds) is.