No Ball - No Whistle???

[WyMike]

Worked a game last night at a small school. V game for the small school and they played a larger schools Soph team.

I'm LJ and A runs off-tackle towards my wing. Gets initially hit at LOS but is driving forward. You've all seen this, a few more B players hit the growing moving pile, and a few more A players get involved. Now we have 7-8 players plus a runner and the "pile" is still moving forward. I no longer have a visual on the ball but do have the runners legs still pumping.

Finally the pile is stopped and begins to go backwards. I have a forward progress spot, but do not see anything of the ball.

The mass of players goes back about 5 yards and begins to fall to the ground. WH is close, U is coming in, BJ is moving up. Pile finally hits the ground and I see a B player holding the ball in his gut curled up on the ground maybe a yard or two inside the hash marks (Play was a yard or so to my side of the HM). WH blows the play dead as he moves toward the pile to get players off of each other and runs right by the B player on the ground with the ball. As soon as I see the B player with the ball on the ground I and the WH whistle simultaneously. But he is looking towards the pile and I'm looking at B w/ball.

When B stands up to show the WH the ball our WH confers with the rest of the crew which no one saw the ball come loose. WH declares the ball dead and awards ball to A after asking me where I had forward progress spotted. U sets the ball and RFP signal is given.

At halftime we all get chastized for not blowing the play dead even though no one saw the ball. WH mentions it makes us look stupid and U responds with he isn't blowing the play dead until he sees the ball.

Last thing I wanted to happen was an IW by whistling when the pile moved back since the ball could have popped out on the other side of the pile without me seeing it.

I understand whistling on behalf of player safety and the pile was taking a long time to move forward, about 5-6 seconds to go two yards, but there was still forward progress being made.

No one saw the ball pop loose, B player must have pulled it loose somewhere along the way, tucked and covered it and fell to the ground from the pile.

Is this more of a judgement call for veteran guys? Or is it a hard and fast practice to NOT blow a play dead until you ACTUALLY SEE the player IN POSSESSION of the ball go down or OOB's?



WM

[BulldogMcC]

The whistle is just an official's way of saying 'I have seen a dead ball'. The ball may have been dead by rule for several seconds before any whistle sounded if none of the covering officials actually see the ball become dead. Sounding a whistle when you do not see a dead ball is just asking for IW trouble. My Sig says it for me.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by WyMike
Last thing I wanted to happen was an IW by whistling when the pile moved back since the ball could have popped out on the other side of the pile without me seeing it.

What difference would that have made? Once the player's forward progress is stopped and the pile is being pushed backwards, the ball is dead. It makes no difference whether it pops out or not.

In a pile like that, when I know the runner had the ball when he was piled on, I'm killing it, especially when I start seeing them ripping at the ball.

[BulldogMcC]

I agree that if I see the ball in player possession as the pile stops I will kill it there, but in the case presented, he lost sight of the ball in player possession as it was still being advanced. After he lost sight of the ball is when the pile started going backwards. I think that makes this one of those, you have to see it to call it plays. No, I don't want the ball to come out after forward progress is stopped but if I cannot see a dead ball, I am loath to blow my whistle. The whistle isn't causing the ball to become dead, the action does.

[BktBallRef]

If the runner doesn't have the ball, it will either be on the ground or a defender will be running the other way with it. If you don't see one of those two things, then the runner still had it when he was stopped. JMHO

[BulldogMcC]

The more I think about this the more I think BktBallRef is correct. If I am going to declare that I have a forward progress spot, I might as well blow the whistle and sell my spot.

[WyMike]

Part of my point was the fact since I did lose sight of the ball due to it being surrounded by A&B players, what if the ball had become "loose" while the pile was moving forward?

2/7 ball on A's 40. A3 runs right and is hit at A's 43yd. Pile develops and sight of the ball is lost at A's 44yd but forward progress continues to A's 48yd. Pile then moves backwards to A's 45yd line.

My question is since I cannot visually locate the ball from A's 44 to A's 48 yard line, what if the ball popped loose on the other side of the pile without me seeing it? Certainly it's an IW if I whistle the play over at A's 48 yard line declaring A3's forward progress had stopped, even though I could not see the ball, correct?

Imagine the whistle sounding at A's 48 because of stopped forward progress and then notice B2 holding the ball up on A's 10?!?! Think a HC could "forgive" that one in a closely contested game?

BktBallRef is right, he says, "when I know the runner has the ball". But I didn't [i[know[/i].

WM

[Edited by WyMike on Sep 9th, 2005 at 03:16 PM]

[BulldogMcC]

But in your original post you said you had a spot for forward progress. If you have a spot of forward progress, you have aready assumed the player had the ball at the point forward progress is stopped. I still lean towards not blowing the whistle unless I see the ball, but if you are going to be holding a forward progress spot, you might as well kill it and sell the spot since you are no longer staying parallel to the play. In the end though, I think not blowing the whistle is a heck of a lot easier to explain to coaches and fellow officials "I could not see the ball" than a potential IW. If you are standing there with a FP spot and the ball pops out, what do you do then? Wouldn't the A coach have just a big of a beef if you gave B the ball after a wing held a FP spot?

[WyMike]

Originally posted by BulldogMcC
But in your original post you said you had a spot for forward progress.

BulldogMC I had the runner in view, or at least his lower torso/legs and I could confirm it as he had taped his ankles/shoes. So I knew where the runners forward progress had stopped, but I didn't know where the ball was and couldn't see over or around to the other side of the pile. So I felt with my partners coming in, they might have an angle on the ball and blow. Between myself, WH, U and BJ we had the play boxed in okay as far as my wing was concerned. Why no one didn't see B on the ground with the ball, who knows, it just happened that way.

Plus, I don't think any of want to "assume" a player has the ball when we start to hit the Fox40. We want to "know" where the ball is, right?

But back to my original question, No Ball - No Whistle? Just like your sig!

WM

[BulldogMcC]

Originally posted by WyMike

BulldogMC I had the runner in view, or at least his lower torso/legs and I could confirm it as he had taped his ankles/shoes. So I knew where the runners forward progress had stopped, but I didn't know where the ball was and couldn't see over or around to the other side of the pile. So I felt with my partners coming in, they might have an angle on the ball and blow. Between myself, WH, U and BJ we had the play boxed in okay as far as my wing was concerned. Why no one didn't see B on the ground with the ball, who knows, it just happened that way.

Plus, I don't think any of want to "assume" a player has the ball when we start to hit the Fox40. We want to "know" where the ball is, right?

But back to my original question, No Ball - No Whistle? Just like your sig!

WM

I agree, but forward progess requires that I know the runner still has the ball. I cannot call what I cannot see. I am only advocating thinking about hitting the whistle if you are holding a FP spot as you are already saying, "I had the runner's FP stopped here." which is a definition dead ball. Personally I would either hold my spot for forward progress and hit the whistle, or more likely, stay lateral with the play and keep looking for the ball. If anyone *****es tell them you lost sight of the ball at the X yard line in team Y's possession and didn't want to blow an IW. That should shut up all but the slowest Rs.