Muffed Scrimmage Kick

[IAUMP]

This question came up during a discussion of a game from last Friday (high school using NF rules). My crew did not do the game, but came across the information second hand.

K1 punts to R1, who is standing on his five yard line. R1 muffs the catch and the ball goes into the endzone. We understand that if the ball is grounded in the endzone it is a touchback. No question from us.

Since the crew doing the game awarded K a touchdown, and we are not sure how the ball was recovered, our question is as follows. If the muff by R1 goes into the air, and K2 was standing just across the goal line, to prevent the ball from entering the endzone (remember all that matters is where the ball is not the player). K2 recovers the airborn muff in the endzone. Would this be a touchdown for K?

Thanks for any thoughts on this matter.

[mikesears]

Any kick that breaks the plane of R's goal line is a touchback. It does not matter if it is caught or recovered in the end zone, it is a dead ball when it breaks the plane of the goal line.

[w_sohl]

Let's say that K gained possesion while his feet were in the endzone but reached outside the endzone to say the 1/2 yard line (ball has not crossed goal line yet) secured possesion and then brought the ball across. I think this would be a touchdown.

[Snake~eyes]

Originally posted by w_sohl
Let's say that K gained possesion while his feet were in the endzone but reached outside the endzone to say the 1/2 yard line (ball has not crossed goal line yet) secured possesion and then brought the ball across. I think this would be a touchdown.

If K touched the abll before R it would be R's ball.

[IAUMP]

Snake-eyes.

Thanks for your input. Obviously you didn't read the entire thread as you would have noticed that this discussion is about a muffed catch. Thus, R already touched the ball.

W-Sohl, That is exactly the scenerio I was trying to present. I think it would be hard not to award a touchdown in this case.

[AndrewMcCarthy]

Originally posted by w_sohl
Let's say that K gained possesion while his feet were in the endzone but reached outside the endzone to say the 1/2 yard line (ball has not crossed goal line yet) secured possesion and then brought the ball across. I think this would be a touchdown.

If this was after the muff by R, the ball would be K's first and goal at the 1/2 line. When he secures possession, the ball becomes dead where it is- you cannot advance a muff.

[BulldogMcC]

Originally posted by w_sohl
Let's say that K gained possesion while his feet were in the endzone but reached outside the endzone to say the 1/2 yard line (ball has not crossed goal line yet) secured possesion and then brought the ball across. I think this would be a touchdown.

If K was standing with his feet in the EZ but reached out to secure a kick that had been muffed by R at the 1/2 foot line, the ball becomes dead at the half foot line as the position of the ball is important, not the player in this scenerio. When K secures possession of a kick that has crossed the NZ and it has been touched by R, the ball becomes dead and is K's at hat spot 1st and 10 (or goal in your play). As soon as the position of the ball is such that it crosses R' Goal Line, it is a touchback in all cases for a Kick which is not a scoring attempt.

Another way to think of it is, there are only two ways for K to be able to advance the ball after a legal scrimmage kick and therefor score a touchdown.

One, the kick ends because R secures possession and thereafter during the down, losses player possession (it is now a fumble) and K recovers. K has recovered a fumble not a K so they have all the rights to normal advancement of the ball.
Two, if they recover the scrimage kick in or behind the NZ they may advance the ball.

[Edited by BulldogMcC on Sep 9th, 2005 at 01:07 PM]

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by w_sohl
Let's say that K gained possesion while his feet were in the endzone but reached outside the endzone to say the 1/2 yard line (ball has not crossed goal line yet) secured possesion and then brought the ball across. I think this would be a touchdown.

And you would be wrong.

The ball is dead when he gains possession of it, at the 1/2 yard line. In your scenario, he has advanced the ball 1/2 yard into the EZ. That's not possible.

You can't have it both ways. All kicks going into R's EZ result in a touchback. All kicks possessed by K beyond the NZ are dead at the point of possession.

[The Roamin' Umpire]

It is impossible for K to catch/recover their own punt and directly score a touchdown, unless the kick rebounds back in/behind the neutral zone.

If K possesses the ball outside of the EZ, the ball is dead upon possession, and they may not advance.

If K possesses the ball in the EZ, the ball became dead as soon as it broke the plane, yielding a touchback.

[w_sohl]

Originally posted by AndrewMcCarthy

If this was after the muff by R, the ball would be K's first and goal at the 1/2 line. When he secures possession, the ball becomes dead where it is- you cannot advance a muff.

I was actually coming back to post that after I had thought about the sitch more. 1st and goal from the 1/2 yard line, although that may be a REAL tough sell to the R coach.

[MJT]

Originally posted by IAUMP
This question came up during a discussion of a game from last Friday (high school using NF rules). My crew did not do the game, but came across the information second hand.

K1 punts to R1, who is standing on his five yard line. R1 muffs the catch and the ball goes into the endzone. We understand that if the ball is grounded in the endzone it is a touchback. No question from us.

Since the crew doing the game awarded K a touchdown, and we are not sure how the ball was recovered, our question is as follows. If the muff by R1 goes into the air, and K2 was standing just across the goal line, to prevent the ball from entering the endzone (remember all that matters is where the ball is not the player). K2 recovers the airborn muff in the endzone. Would this be a touchdown for K?

Thanks for any thoughts on this matter.

The kick does not have to be grounded in the EZ to have a TB, if it crosses the plane you have a TB. In college it must be grounded, but not NF.

You tell me one HS player that is going to know that after a muff the ball will still become dead when it crosses the EZ, so he stands in the EZ, but reaches out to catch the ball out of the EZ and then brings it into the EZ. That is a person that does not exist. Anyway, the ball would become dead at the spot the ball is when K gains possession, so 1-goal inside the 1 yard line.

[Jim S]

Guys, let's watch our phrasology here. The ball does not have to CROSS the plane of the goal line. Just BREAK it. Any part of the ball.
As far as it being a hard sell to the R coach, we all know he can see better from 25-30 yards away, at an angle, than the backjudge standing on the line.
These are the calls that we are out there to make. If they could be called from the coaching box better, we would have a different mechanic.

[w_sohl]

Originally posted by Jim S
Guys, let's watch our phrasology here. The ball does not have to CROSS the plane of the goal line. Just BREAK it. Any part of the ball.
As far as it being a hard sell to the R coach, we all know he can see better from 25-30 yards away, at an angle, than the backjudge standing on the line.
These are the calls that we are out there to make. If they could be called from the coaching box better, we would have a different mechanic.

I'm not saying that I wouldn't make that call, all I am saying is when that call does get made one of your linesmen are going to get an earful for the rest of the game.

[waltjp]

The only way this could be a TD is if R had possession and lost it. Anything else is a TB. A kick is a kick is a kick, and the kick doesn't end until it's possessed or dead by rule.

Sounds like the officials kicked this one.