11th Man Running On....

OverAndBack · #1 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 08, 2005, 07:24pm

Had this situation in an 8th grade game recently:

A's ball 2nd and goal at B's 6 yard line. B notices that they have only 10 defensive players. So as A is coming to the line and after the ready for play, B11 runs onto the field. He doesn't make it to his side of the line before the snap.

B2 runs 6 yards for a touchdown.

My partner flags it, calls offside (actually encroachment, there is no "offside" anymore, right?) and A declines it and takes the touchdown.

I ask my partner, "Isn't that a dead-ball foul?" He says, "No."

Now, if it's encroachment, doesn't it have to be a dead-ball foul (no play, no touchdown)? And if it's a substitution infraction, isn't it also a dead-ball foul?

A won by 34 points, so it was not the biggest deal in the world. But if it happens again, I want to make sure I get the call correct. What do y'all think?

michaelpr · #2 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 08, 2005, 07:32pm

it is illegal participation and is enforced from the spot that you noticed the infraction (where the flag is)

this could be a sticky situation.

JugglingReferee · #3 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 08, 2005, 08:42pm

A will decline B's Illegal Substitution foul and accept the touchdown.

MJT · #4 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 08, 2005, 09:38pm

Quote:

Originally posted by michaelpr
it is illegal participation and is enforced from the spot that you noticed the infraction (where the flag is)

this could be a sticky situation.

michaelpr, this is not an IP foul, it is an IS foul. It is IP if he enters after the snap, but if he enters before the snap and is not on "his" side of the NZ, it is IS. See 3-7-5 in rule book, and 3.7.6 in case book.

dumbref · #5 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 08, 2005, 10:10pm

Quote:

Originally posted by MJT

Quote:

Originally posted by michaelpr
it is illegal participation and is enforced from the spot that you noticed the infraction (where the flag is)

this could be a sticky situation.

michaelpr, this is not an IP foul, it is an IS foul. It is IP if he enters after the snap, but if he enters before the snap and is not on "his" side of the NZ, it is IS. See 3-7-5 in rule book, and 3.7.6 in case book.

Agree with MJT. It is also a live ball foul, so the score stands if A declines.

SouthGARef · #6 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 08, 2005, 11:22pm

Live ball foul for illegal substitution (one of the two instances that you can have live ball illegal substitution if I'm not mistaken).

A good way to remember that this is not encroachment is that he's technically not a "player" until he is on his team's side of the neutral zone. Thus, it's a live ball illegal substitution.

WhistlesAndStripes · #7 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 09, 2005, 02:26am

Quote:

Originally posted by OverAndBack
Had this situation in an 8th grade game recently:

A's ball 2nd and goal at B's 6 yard line. B notices that they have only 10 defensive players. So as A is coming to the line and after the ready for play, B11 runs onto the field. He doesn't make it to his side of the line before the snap.

B2 runs 6 yards for a touchdown.

How did B2 run only 6 yards for a TD? Seems to me that B2 woulda had to have run 94 after picking up a fumble or making an interception or something.

OverAndBack · #8 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 09, 2005, 08:20am

Sorry. A2 ran for the touchdown. It was late, I was tired.

So live ball foul was correct. The "offside" call was incorrect? Should have been illegal substitution?

We also had a 15-yard face mask at the 20 going in and my partner wanted to mark it off down to the five yard line, so I just wanted to check to make sure.

irefky · #9 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 09, 2005, 08:35am

Half the distance on the face mask penalty, ball on 10 yard line.

Agree with MJT, IS, live ball, TD is good after penalty is refused.

Warrenkicker · #10 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 09, 2005, 09:21am

But didn't B foul on a scoring play by A where there was no change of possession? The score for A stands and the penalty for IS is enforced on the try.

mikesears · #11 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 09, 2005, 10:56am

If he tries to participate after entering it becomes illegal participation, right?

BulldogMcC · #12 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 09, 2005, 12:23pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Warrenkicker
But didn't B foul on a scoring play by A where there was no change of possession? The score for A stands and the penalty for IS is enforced on the try.

We have a winner!

The Roamin' Umpire · #13 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 09, 2005, 04:36pm

Quote:

Originally posted by mikesears
If he tries to participate after entering it becomes illegal participation, right?

Yes - he's a substitute until he gets to his side of the neutral zone, and substitutes may not participate.

yankeesfan · #14 (**permalink**) Sat Sep 10, 2005, 12:53am

if this is a live ball penalty, why would the enforcement be from the previous spot as stated in 3.7.6 of the case book and not from the end of the run? that is really not penalizing the defense as much as it should be.

The Roamin' Umpire · #15 (**permalink**) Sat Sep 10, 2005, 07:42am

Quote:

Originally posted by yankeesfan
if this is a live ball penalty, why would the enforcement be from the previous spot as stated in 3.7.6 of the case book and not from the end of the run? that is really not penalizing the defense as much as it should be.

It's a foul simultaneous with the snap; all such fouls are penalized from the previous spot.