Shutdown legal in your area?

[ljudge]

We had a discussion tonight in our referee's position meeting as I want to make sure we're in sync how we call this........

Play...4th and 4 and offense for the first time in the game (2nd Qtr) shifts from hands on knees VERY QUICKLY to a 3-point stance in an effort to draw the defense into the neutral zone. And as they quickly shift a few members of the O-line kind of grunts out loud as they do it. Defense encroaches. What do you have?

I know the rule (I think its 7.1.7 b) but do you call it in your respective area?

In my rookie season I came to the WH and told him I had defense and he looked at me like I had 10 heads. Of course the little cocky rookie who new the rules and rule reference number tried to help the referee understand why he was wrong. Well low and behold we went with encroachment defense gave team A a 1st down. I went back to my Line Judge position with my tail between my legs.

What I didn't realize at the time is we consider this legal. What do you do in your states?

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by ljudge
In my rookie season I came to the WH and told him I had defense and he looked at me like I had 10 heads. Of course the little cocky rookie who new the rules and rule reference number tried to help the referee understand why he was wrong. Well low and behold we went with encroachment defense gave team A a 1st down. I went back to my Line Judge position with my tail between my legs.

Huh?

Is that what you meant to write?

______________________________

Foul's on the offense.

[Forksref]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Huh?

Is that what you meant to write?

______________________________

Foul's on the offense.

And if you call it once, I bet you won't have a problem with it the rest of the game.

[BulldogMcC]

Originally posted by ljudge
We had a discussion tonight in our referee's position meeting as I want to make sure we're in sync how we call this........

Play...4th and 4 and offense for the first time in the game (2nd Qtr) shifts from hands on knees VERY QUICKLY to a 3-point stance in an effort to draw the defense into the neutral zone. And as they quickly shift a few members of the O-line kind of grunts out loud as they do it. Defense encroaches. What do you have?

I know the rule (I think its 7.1.7 b) but do you call it in your respective area?

In my rookie season I came to the WH and told him I had defense and he looked at me like I had 10 heads. Of course the little cocky rookie who new the rules and rule reference number tried to help the referee understand why he was wrong. Well low and behold we went with encroachment defense gave team A a 1st down. I went back to my Line Judge position with my tail between my legs.

What I didn't realize at the time is we consider this legal. What do you do in your states?

If you convinced the R, why did you go back with your tail between your legs?

I think the relevant rule is 7-1-7a & 7-1-7b. Regardless of which one you use, this sounds like a false start on A. Unless my U says, "Well, I was watching my keys and it was obviously a shift to me and not simulating a start." would I think this was encroachment and not a false start.

[ljudge]

Sorry gentlemen, I didn't properly proofread. I guess I got my proofreading lessons from the NFHS.

Thanks BBR, no I said to the WH I have offense for a false start as they clearly made an act to cause B to encroach. Defense jumped and we gave the offense a 1st down and I didn't think we should have as per the rule. Sorry for the confusion.

I was reprimanded for citing the rule at halftime. His reaction was "don't give me that rules $hit."

But again, I didn't know we were allowing this in NJ when I made the call. I'm curious as to what other states do.

[Edited by ljudge on Sep 7th, 2005 at 08:24 AM]

[cowbyfan1]

I think 7-1-7-c would be the better rule to site but having said that, I would really have to see this as some teams initially set up in a 2 point and then "set" down to a 3 point, something like what the Cowboys would do back in the 70's and 80's. So I would have a hard time calling a false start on that.

[MJT]

Abruptly and with grunts is to get the defense to react - false start on A. We had the same thing last year, but it was on 4-4 in the 4th qtr and the team had been in a 2 pt stance for ALL punts before that. Coach didn't really like it, but he new we got it right after the explaination.

[don't move]

In KY that 'shut down' or Dallas shift has been a false start for years. It is clearly intended to cause the defense to encroach. Each year for at least the past 10 years, at all our rules clinics throughout the state, (required for coaches to attend) that play is always mentioned as being a foul on the offense. We all call it the same way and it is no longer a problem.
In a somewhat related situation, a few years ago in a AAAA state championship game, just before the ball was snapped, all players on the defense simultaneously 'flopped' down to the ground. As was intended, several offensive linemen jumped. After a long discussion, it was ruled a false start on the offense. Our commissioner said after the game, rule 9-5-1d should have been applied making it an unsportsmanlike foul on the defense for using disconcerting acts prior to the snap. Has anyone seen this tactic by the defense? How did you call it?

[dumbref]

This is going to be a judgment call every time and there is no easy consistent way to apply it. Done correctly, it is legal whether the offense had been shifting in the past or not. While we may suspect they are trying to draw an encroachment foul, it is hard to penalize intent!

I have had coaches tell us in pre-game they will use the “Dallas Shift” and they do it a very smooth and consistent manner. I warn them that it is a judgment call every time he runs it. I try to put them on notice that they are subject to a false start if done improperly.

I tell my wingmen and umpire if “they” (the official) reacted as if it were the start of a play, it is probably a false start. And it has nothing to do with whether the defense jumped. The easy call is encroachment. The grunts, slinging of arms above the head (as I have seen), very quick movements or if the shift is not done with some unison makes it much easier to call a false start without reading intent into it. Each play must stand on its own merit.

With a false start you can also expect to hear the proverb “We’ve done it that way all year”. Sooooo? What’s you point??

Simply put, if it looks like the start of a play (judgment) and the ball was not snapped – I have a false start. Tough call and I want guys in my crew that will make them!

[Bob M.]

REPLY: I give dumbref five stars for being anything but dumb! His approach to this is the most fair and level-headed I've read. In my opinion (and I've been known to have a few ), a false start should stand on its own merits. No need to mind-read what the offense's actions were 'designed' to do. Example: Team A has been punting all game on the first 'hut' with their o-line in two point stance. Now in the fourth quarter on a 4th and 1, the o-line shifts on the first 'hut' (not abruptly, just a normal shift) into a three point stance--maybe even using the Dallas shift. Three B linemen come across. What do you have? If you say a false start, how do you defend that call when the coach tells you he shifted his linemen down because he was going to fake the punt with a snap to his upback and he wanted his linemen down to get a better position to block? So the play was not 'designed to cause B to encroach' but rather as a fake punt. How do you defend your call?

That's my problem with NF 7-1-7b. It's way to subjective to officiate consistently or properly. I still feel that 7-1-7a and 7-1-7c are sufficient criteria to determine whether or not Team A has committed a false start. Team B knows that Team A may shift or may go on the second or third 'hut.' Just because the game to this point has 'conditioned' B to expect the same old scrimmage kick formation is no reason to penalize A for doing something different. If you wouldn't call it a false start on the first punt of the game, you have no business calling it a false start in the fourth quarter...IMHO.