Previous Spot................Or Not???

[mikesears]

Originally posted by GPC2
Here is a question that we have been discussing at length in our association. I will give my interpretation, but I don't necessarily know if it is absolutely correct or even if it is spelled out in the rule book.

R1 is in the game to return a kickoff. He muffs the kick at R's 15. R1 then bats the bouncing ball at R's 8 into and out of R's end zone. Ruling: Safety

We all agree that the answer is False it is not a Safety, but the disagreement is on the enforcement spot. I am of the opinion that the basic spot is the succeeding spot - which is R's 20-yard line. BUT, the penalty would be enforced from the 8-yard line since that spot is behind the basic spot.

Reasoning: based on 10-4-5d, the basic spot is the succeeding spot when the final result is a touchback. It is a touchback based on 2-13-4a, Force is not a factor on kicks going into R's end zone, since these kicks are always a touchback regardless of who supplied the force.


Other officials in the association insist that this is a loose ball foul that would be administered from the previous spot.

Monkey Wrench: If R1's batted ball goes out at R's 1-yard line, would the basic spot be the 1-yard line? Seems weird - just looking for clarification on this issue.

Casebook Play 8.5.3B address this situation.

[GPC2]

Originally posted by mikesears

How about this one?

1st and ten on A's 30-yard line. A1 is illegally in motion at the snap. A3 runs the ball all the way to B's 3-yard line where he fumbles the ball out of the back of B's end zone. What is the result of this play and how would the penalty be enforced?

Mike I don't think you can draw comparisons with this play and the one I originally posted since your play involves change of possession. There is NO WAY that K can claim the ball in the play that I posted. However in your play, it seems to be pretty simple, B can decline the penalty and take possession of the ball at their 20. If B (foolishly) accepts the penalty, then you would need to go to A's 25-yard line and play 1st and 15. The only possible spots of enforcement for A's foul would be the end of the run (B's 3-yard line) or the previous line-of-scrimmage.

Correct me if I am wrong.

[MJT]

Case book play 8-5-3-b has proven me to be wrong, which is fine, I just love these good discussions, and getting to the bottom of them to know what to do when the play occurs whether I was right or wrong when discussing. Thanks guys, and good job Mike! A guy on the other board just pointed to the same case play Mike.

[GPC2]

Originally posted by mikesears


Casebook Play 8.5.3B address this situation.

Hey Mike, would you mind posting that play from the case book? I am at work and don't have my books with me. Thank you very much.

[mikesears]

Originally posted by GPC2

Hey Mike, would you mind posting that play from the case book? I am at work and don't have my books with me. Thank you very much.

Play: K1 kicks off to start the second half. The ball is rolling on R’s 7-yard line when R1: (a) accidentally, or (b) intentionally kicks the ball into his own end zone where R2 recovers. Is the kick by R1 in either (a) or (b) a new force? If the action is a foul, where is it penalized from?

Ruling: It is not a new force in either (a) or (b), as force is not a consideration on kicks going into R’s end zone. Even though the ball was kicked by R1, the kick had not ended. The contact in (a) is ignored, because it was not an intentional act. In (b), the kick is illegal, and if the penalty is accepted, it is enforced from the previous spot. In both (a) and (b), the ball becomes dead when the kick breaks the plane of R’s goal line. (2-13-4; 9-7-1; 10-6)

[GPC2]

Wow. Thanks Mike. I think that this is totally contradictory to 10-4-5d. I agree with you that this rule should be reworded. Thanks again for the clarification.

[kdf5]

If a penalty occurs during a loose ball play the basic spot is either PSK enforcement or previous spot enforcement (10-6).

Excellent discussion and the lesson for me is to stick to the basics and don't make it harder than it is.

[Bob M.]

REPLY: The key is that the Federation 'forgot' to mention one thing in NF 10-4-5d. It applies only to fouls during running plays that result in a touchback. Touchbacks that occur as a result of a legal kick (free or scrimmage) are different animals. Fouls that occur during those kicks have occurred during a loose ball play. The basic spot is therefore the previous spot.

[GPC2]

Originally posted by Bob M.
REPLY: The key is that the Federation 'forgot' to mention one thing in NF 10-4-5d. It applies only to fouls during running plays that result in a touchback. Touchbacks that occur as a result of a legal kick (free or scrimmage) are different animals. Fouls that occur during those kicks have occurred during a loose ball play. The basic spot is therefore the previous spot.

Let's hope they clarify that for next year. This is definitely a play that I can see happening in a game.

[Bob M.]

REPLY: I wouldn't count on it GPC2. This rule has read that way for a number of years now. They made a slight change to it somewhere around 1994, but only made it more confusing by doing so. IMHO, the history behind the introduction of this rule was good in principle, poorer in execution.

[w_sohl]

I am now more confused for having read this thread.

[The Roamin' Umpire]

Originally posted by w_sohl
I am now more confused for having read this thread.

The problem is that there's a legitimate rules conflict here - 5-2-1 and 5-2-4 directly contradict 10-4-5d.

The answer is that 5-2-1 and 5-2-4 take precedence, as indicated by the casebook under 8.5.3b. (Hell of a place for it.) A foul during a loose ball play will be penalized from the previous spot (barring PSK) even when the result of the play is a touchback.

[don't move]

Page 74 of the case book Play 9.7.2 situation B (part a) is right on point. This is a punt batted by K into the endzone. Ruling: R may take the ball at the spot of first touching, they can accept the result of the play which is a touchback, or they can have K rekick after a 15 yd penalty from the previous spot.

Using the 20 yardline as the basic spot is not an option. It's a loose ball, previous spot foul, even though the final result of the play is a touchback.