I'll take issue with that...

10-3-1 A loose-ball play is action during:

take "b" for example...

b. A legal forward pass

The key word there is DURING. So when the legal forward pass ends- so does the loose-ball play. We now have a running play since after the pass ends (like if the ball is caught) we have "action not included under Article 1" (10-3-2)

I'm not sure what you're getting at, Bob- the loose-ball play does have a defined end.

I think what Bob was saying (and apologize for speaking for Bob--set me straight if need be Bob) was that if the pass is caught beyond the NZ, it now "becomes" a running play, but if the ball is (a) caught behind the NZ, or the runner (b) brings the ball back behind the NZ and then proceeds to fumble in (a) or (b), it once again is a loose ball play.

REPLY: Andrew...what I'm trying to get across (and obviously not so well) is that the end of a loose ball play really can't be determined <u>definitively</u> until the down ends or until a change of possession. Take your example...After the legal forward pass is completed, it will probably start a running play. But...what if the receiver comes back behind the NZ and then fumbles and then A (or B) recovers? Then all of the action during the entire down occurred during the loose ball play that began with the snap. There was no running play in such a down. Now, if the receiver stays beyond the NZ and is tackled, then yes, all action after the reception occurred during a running play, but you can't really tell that until after the down ends. Another way of saying essentially the same thing: Before a change of possession, if you drop a flag, you can say with 100% certainty at that time that the foul occurred during a loose ball play if it occurred during a legal forward pass, a free kick or scrimmage kick or while the ball is loose following a fumble, backward pass, or illegal kick behind the neutral zone. But if it occurred while the ball is a Team A player's possession, you can't say for sure <b>at that time</b> whether the foul occurred during a loose ball play or during a running play. You can only determine that for sure after the down ends or after a change of possession.

I think I see what you're getting at. The way I like to think about it is that if you ever have a loose-ball play then everything that happened before that automatically becomes part of it.

REPLY: That sounds reasonable. So "...if you ever have a loose-ball play then everything that happened before that automatically becomes part of it," even though it might have had the <i>appearance,</i> of a running play when it happened. I think we're in agreement here. Another "ridiculous" play to illustrate the point: <b>PLAY:</b> A's legal forward pass is caught by A85 beyond the NZ. A56 holds his opponent downfield <u>after</u> the reception. A85 fumbles and the ball bounces back behind the NZ. A12 picks it up and punts it downfield. B23 catches the kick and is tackled at his 20. <b>RULING:</b> Even though it <u>appeared</u> that A56's hold took place during a running play, A85's fumble and A12's subsequent punt made the entire down up to the point of B23's possession of the scrimmage kick one big loose ball play. If B wants to accept the penalty for A's hold, enforcement will be from the previous spot.

A loose ball play is defined as action during backward pass (including the snap), illegal kick or fumble made by A from in or behind the neutral zone and prior to a change of team possession.

Doesn't this mean the fumble must originate from in or behind the neutral zone, or in other words, the runner must fumble while in or behind the neutral zone? Where the fumble is recovered is of no consequence. The fumble is then treated as part of a running play. When the ball goes back behind the neutral zone and is recovered, it is still a running play because it does not meat the defintion of a loose ball play. BUT, once A12 picks the ball up and kicks it, the run or runs that preceded the loose ball play is then treated as part of that loose ball play. WOW! Now that we are discussing it, it's bound to happen in one of my games :D

I think that, yes, where the ball is fumbled matters, and where is it recovered does not. As the rule says--"made."

REPLY: Mike, It isn't 2-31-1c that makes this a loose ball play since, as you point out, A's fumble occurred beyond the NZ. Rather, it's 2-31-1d that governs the situation. Since the ball was eventually legally kicked by Team A, everything that preceded that kick becomes part of the loose ball play:
<b>NF 2-31-1d - </b><i>A loose ball play is action during... (d.) The run or runs which precedes such legal or illegal kick, legal forward pass, backward pass or fumble.</i> The fact that the fumble occurred beyond the NZ doesn't change the fact that A85's run preceded the legal kick and therefore becomes part of the loose ball play.

LJ, I like that....

LJ845, I have never heard that one before....

[QUOTE]Originally posted by grantsrc
[B]Fumbles are not loose ball plays, they are loose balls. (10-3-1)

Loose ball plays are the action DURING a legal kick or pass, not a fumble. (10-3-1)

Thus, fouls during the fumble are enforced from the end of the run (where the ball came loose).

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Forksref
[B]Depends on where the fumble occurs... and who fumbled.

A loose-ball play is action during:
10-3-1c A backward pass (including the snap), illegal kick or fumble made by A in or behind the neutral zone prior to a change of team possession.

So if A10 takes the snap and retreats 5 yards where he fumbles, and A67 holds at the line of scrimmage before the fumble, then A12 recovers 8 yards behind the line of scrimmage... the basic spot is the previous spot.

13will

That's correct. Fumble in or behind neutral zone is part of loose ball PLAY. (previous spot enforcement) Fumble beyond the neutral zone is a loose BALL. (end of run enforcement)

Illegal formation, on the offense. 5 yards from the previous spot... still 2nd down.

Coach: "Can you give me a number on that?"

Ref: "Uh, no, I can't."

That's as good as it gets!


Ref: "A bunch of numbers between 1 and 99."