It's a little slow in here so here's somthing to talk about.

You're out on the field doing NFHS rules and you've got some fan/coach/player yelling at you who is trying to apply NFL/NCAA rules or something thats not a rule in any code.

Let's see who's had the worst misconceptions and which ones occur the most....

Oh, where to begin?!?

There's always the favorite, "That pass was uncatchable!"
Or "They had 12 men in the huddle!"

How about this one among officials:

Offense holds behind the LOS on a pass play, so you "apply the all-but-one principle on that one." Along with that is "go with what hurts them the most" (sorry, that has become a pet peeve of mine).

Among coaches, there are too many to count. One would be (on a punt play) "he was downfield too soon."

What's wrong with that?

My favorite for the pass reception has always been "he only came down with one foot in bounds!"

My fan favorite - the two minute warning.

One more. I'm wondering what is wrong with that as well. Foul by the offense behind the basic spot is penalized from the spot of the foul. Basic spot on a loose ball play (pass) is the previous spot. So this one is the all-but-one.

I love when a player on the end of the line doesn't have an eligibile number. "Hey Mr. Official, Number 76 has to report."

You guys may very well disagree with an action I have taken in the past but it has worked very well. You could of course say I'm having a case of "rabbit ears." I don't make this a habit but when it's a coach I always say "no coach, that's the NFL." rather than ignoring him. It makes things so much easier.

Even when a fan does it if I'm within earshot of him/her and I'm on a wing (or even referee and I'm in a side zone facing the sideline) I don't hesitate to politely utter "that's an NFL rule." On the fan interaction I have only done that in midgets since the fence is right up on the field and it really does work. I do it quietly (without yelling that is) and again only when within an earshot of the fan who may be standing right there. It's not a habit but I have used that technique a couple of times.

REPLY: How about the "he was in the two-yard belt" on scrimmage kicks. They don't realize that it's no longer even an NCAA rule!

Had one this past season where a long field goal attempt rolled OOB at about the 6. We were marking it there when the fans on that side started yelling that it wasn't a punt so we couldn't put the ball there. It made me want to say to them that it was a punt to me.

As someone else stated- where to begin?

"He (the QB) can ground the ball (or throw it forward out of bounds)-he was outside of the tackles"

On a running sweep play- WR told me to throw a flag because the DB contacted him beyond the 5 yard chuck zone.

"Uncatchable pass" as I throw the flag for DPI

"He did not get both feet inbounds"

I have to say that my favorite came from a player in a varsity contest. The player was the ball carrier and made a break for the endzone and only had one defensive player to beat. Defensive player closes the gap, and forces him out of bounds by pushing him in the back. Offensive player gets up and starts yelling at me- "where's the flag". I say for what. He says "he clipped me".

See 10-6 in NF rule book. The enforcement spot is the previous spot for loose ball plays. (Had to look it up)

Now, what about like, a facemask behind the line while the QB is dropping back to pass, does that mean the foul occured during a "running play" since he has yet to throw the ball? I will have to check the case book.

You mean BASIC enforcement spot (for loose ball plays it is the previous spot). Fouls behind the basic spot by the offense are penalized from the spot of the FOUL.

Therefore, holding by the offense behind the previous spot on a loose ball play is penalized from the spot of the foul.

REPLY: grantsrc...and you're right that a facemask against the QB behind the line while he is dropping back to pass is a foul during a running play <b>unless</b> he subsequently throws a legal forward pass. Consider...<b>PLAY:</b> A, 3/10 from A's 20. QB under a rush scrambles to his 3 yardline where he is tackled by B55 who pulls him down by the face mask. <b>RULING:</b> B's foul occurred during a running play right at the end of the run. After enforcement, it will be A's ball, 3rd and 12 from A's 18. They actually lose yardage by accepting the penalty, but at least they get to replay the down. This is for Federation ball. The NCAA rule would enforce this penalty from the previous spot.

I had to take a time out for dinner with my wife. She really didn't appreciate me flipping through the rule/case books while driving to dinner. I found my answer in the case book. ANY foul on ANY loose ball play (pass, fumble, or kick) is enforced from the previous spot (10.4.2 Situation B Comment). This of course excluding any PSK rulings. All other action prior to the "loose ball" (pass, fumble, or legal or illegal kick) like the QB dropping back, or holding, or face masks or whatever, would still be treated as a loose ball play since loose ball followed. Thus the enforcement spot would be the previous spot.

On the other hand, if the foul occurs <b>AFTER</b> the loose ball play ends (completed pass, recovered fumble, end of kick), then it would be treated as if it were a run play. For example, completed pass, A88 runs and is tackled by his face mask. Loose ball play ends when A88 gains possession of the ball, thus all action after possession occurs during a "run play". Same situation as above, A88 catches a pass at A35. After the catch, A80 holds at A30. A88 runs to A40 where he is downed. The enforcement spot would be A30 since the holding foul was committed behind the basic spot, which is where the loose ball play ends- A35.

Wow, white hats, help a LJ out. Is that the correct ruling/interpretation according to Federation rules?

Canadian Misconceptions
 

With so much American ball prevelant in the Canadian media, there are often misconceptions seen at our amateur (and sometimes professional) games. Here are just a few.

The chuck zone is 5 yards. Uh-uh. 1 yard here.

The infamous pocket. No such animal.

Offside by the offense and a facemask by the defense will offset.

The Canadian game is inferior to the American game.

One of my favs is "He was out of the pocket"
Also the ol uncatchable pass and he was in the halo.

"OPI? How can you call OPI? It was a play action pass!"

Huh?

Pretty much all penalties are enforced applying the all-but-one principle, with only a few exceptions (Rule 10). It's only the "but one" part that applies to the play in my original example (a foul by the offense behind the basic spot). But, generally speaking, all-but-one is used to enforce almost all fouls.

REPLY: As a general statement, this is <u>not</u> true for Federation ball. Any offensive foul behind the basic spot is enforced from the spot of the foul--not the previous spot. True, the BASIC spot is always the previous spot on such plays (except on PSK fouls), but the enforcement spot may differ.

REPLY: But, if the foul is not followed by a legal forward pass, a backward pass, a fumble, or a legal or illegal kick from behind the NZ, then it's a running play--like in the face mask play I posted earlier. And respectfully, your statement that "...the enforcement spot would be the previous spot" is not correct. The BASIC spot would be the previous spot; the ENFORCEMENT spot can only be determined after determining WHO fouled (offense or defense) and WHERE that foul occurred relative to the basic spot. It <u>may</u> be the previous spot or it <u>might</u> be the spot of the foul. Maybe a play situation will help. <b>PLAY:</b> A, 3-10 from A's 40. QB A12 throws a legal forward pass down field. Prior to the pass, A65 held at A's 32. <b>RULING:</b> Since A's foul occurred during a loose ball play, the BASIC spot is the previous spot. But since the foul was by the OFFENSE and it occurred BEHIND the basic spot, enforce from the spot of the foul. Result -- A's ball, 3-28 from A's 22. That's the "one" in the all-but-one principle. Does that help??

Since you're using the term "loose ball play," I'm assuming that you're a Federation rules official (since there's no such thing as a loose ball play in NCAA rules). But coincidentally, the enforcement you're suggesting for a loose ball play is very similar to the NCAA rules.

[Edited by Bob M. on Jun 15th, 2005 at 09:40 AM]

"He was outside the tackle!!"

"There can't be roughing the kicker, the snap hit the ground first!"

"He hit him beyond 5 yards!!"

"That's two forward passes!!" (although that one is now true)

"They left before he punted the ball!!"

"Who should 78 report to when he's an eligible reciever?"

"There can't be roughing the passer!! He's not the quarterback!"

My line to the coaches is always, "that's why it is called roughing the passer, not roughing the quarterback." They will clue in how dumb they are when they realize how long it took them to get it.

It's clear that coaches and fans get caught up in NFL rules for the most part. This isn't up there with one of the biggest misconceptions but I did read on this forum a very funny post from one of you a while back. I believe it was an official from Alabama who posted the message.

I'm paraphrasing here course but the referee's comment (from what I remember of it) was amusing.

It was during a coach/referee pre-game conference that a coach pulled a red flag out of his pocket and asked if he should just throw the flag on the field if he wanted to challenge a particular call.

The referee replied something like "if you throw that red flag on the field it's going to be covered by a little gold flag and it's going to cost you 15 yards."

Duh
 

Sorry all, I was all messed up on the basic enforcement spot or whatever you want to call it. Honestly, I really don't know what I was thinking.

So then please enlighten me, since it's obvious that I have no clue whatsoever. What is wrong with the "go with what hurts them most" philosophy in the pass play scenario we are talking about?

Bob- Yes, I was using federation rules. I do work some games that use NCAA rules, but I haven't worked many and I haven't spent a lot of time distinguishing the difference between the two codes. Obviously I need to spend a little more time with the federation rules too. (insert embarrassed me here) I need to become comfortable with all the different terms and jargon used for these items.

Re: Duh
 

REPLY: Good question. Consider this play. <b>PLAY:</b> A's ball 2-10 from A's 20. A throws a legal forward pass to A88 at A's 22. A88 circles around to the other side of the field where he is dropped for a loss at A's 16. Before the pass is thrown, A55 held at A's 18. <b>RULING:</b> A literal use of the "go with what hurts them most" philosophy might incline you to enforce any accepted penalty from A's 16--since that's what would hurt them the most. But that would be incorrect. Since the foul occurred during a loose ball play, the basic spot is the previous spot. Since the foul was by the OFFENSE and the the foul occurred BEHIND the basic spot, you enforce from the spot of the foul (A's 18). Therefore, the result of an accepted penalty would be A's ball 2-21 from A's 9 (half the distance). Of course, B could always decline the penalty and give the ball to A for a 3rd-14 play.

You could also see the flaw in that philosophy in this play which includes a foul by the defense during a running play: <b>PLAY:</b> On 3rd and 6 from midfield, A22 runs to B's 40 where he fumbles. While the ball is loose, B12 holds A85 at B's 35 to prevent from recovering. A33 recovers at B's 30. <b>RULING:</b> If you applied the "hit 'em where it hurts most" philosophy here, you might be tempted to enforce B's holding foul from B's 30...or at least from B's 35 (the spot of the foul). Both would be incorrect. Since this is a foul by the defense, enforcement is from the basic spot--the end of the run. That, by definition, is the spot where A22 fumbles. Therefore accepting the penalty will give A the ball, 1st and 10 from B's 30. Only by sheer coincidence, declining the penalty would produce the same result.

In my humble opinion--and I mean no offense by this--using phrases like "penalize them where it hurts most", or "the ground can't cause a fumble" and other such shortcuts are poor substitutes for thoroughly understanding the rules.

What do you mean Illegal Formation?
 

Coach, you only had ten players on the field.

Well, who wasn't out there?

I don't know, or care; you're the coach...

Re: Re: Duh
 

Bob, I really appreciate all your feedback and insights on this interpretation. I keep going back and forth between the Federation case book, Federation rule book, and your posts. In the example above, you said the basic spot is where the run ends and he fumbles. That would be supported by Fig 4 in 10-6. The part where I get lost is where the rule book says "A loose-ball play is action during... 3.A backward pass, illegal kick or fumble made by A from in or behind the neutral zone prior to a change in team possession. It includes the run(s) which precede such legal or illegal kick, legal forward pass, backward pass or fumble." So according to this, if the fumble occurs behind the neutral zone, the preceding run is still considered part of the loose-ball play, so the basic spot would be the previous spot. A foul by A behind the basic spot would be enforced from the spot of foul?

But, if the fumble occurs beyond the neutral zone (like your example above) all action prior to the fumble are considered a running play? And to throw one more monkey wrench in this, even the fumble is considered part of the running play prior to A or B securing possession since it occurred beyond the neutral zone?

Play: 1st and 10 from A20. A11 drops back to pass. As he is dropping back, B92 grasps A11's facemask on A17, where A11 (a) fumbles the ball and is recovered by A77 at A16, (b) fumbles the ball forward and is recovered by A77 at A22, or (c) is downed at A15.
My ruling: (a) Since the fumble occurred behind the neutral zone, all action is part of the loose ball play. Basic spot is the previous spot. Since the foul by B is behind the basic spot, the enforcement spot would be the basic spot. 1st and 5 from A25. (b) Same as A. The spot of the recovery doesn't matter, even if it is beyond the neutral zone. (c) Since there was no loose-ball, this is a running play. The basic spot is A15, where he is downed. Since the penalty by B occurred beyond the basic spot, the enforcement spot would be where the run ends. Coincidentally, 1st and 10 from A20.

Boy, I sure hope I am starting to sort this out. I agree with your comment about rules knowledge. I guess that is why I won't let the dead horse die. I really want to understand this. Thanks again for helping me (and hopefully others- I don't want to be the lone fool here) out.

grantsrc,

Here is the text of an article I wrote for my crew's website:

http://www.footballrefs.com/show_article.php?id=1


It is written to help explain how the all-but-one principle applies to a play with a single foul.

Re: Re: Re: Duh
 

Correct. In order for a play to be classified as a loose-ball play, the ball must come loose from in or behind in the neutral zone. The one exception is if the ball comes loose from an illegal forward pass. An illegal forward pass is classified as a running play. Only legal forward passes are classified as being part of a loose ball play.


Correct. All but one applied.


Yes. Some officials get the terms loose-ball and loose-ball play confused. They assume just because the ball is loose, it is now a loose-ball play. Only if the ball comes loose from in or behind the neutral zone is a play classified as a loose-ball play.

Exactly. I think you are getting it

Loose ball play. Basic spot is the previous spot. Foul by the defense is always enforced from the basic spot. If A accepts, 1st & 5 from the A-25.

Again, a loose ball play. Same as A.

Because the ball never came loose, the play is treated as a running play. Basic spot for a running play is the end of the run. 1/10 at the A-20 again after penalty is enforced. A11 might have done himself a favor by fumbling the ball to gain the 5 yards back. :)

Correct.

Fouls by the defense are enforced from the basic spot. Spot of the foul is unimportant.


This is right.

I think you are starting to understand. I hope Bob doesn't mind that I jumped in here :D

The all-but-once principle can be confusing until the terminology is cleared up.

REPLY: No problem MIke...the more different ways that we can explain it, the better off grantsrc will be.

REPLY: OK grantsrc...it seem like you're getting it. Great! Now consider this one (thanks to ljudge for proposing it):
<b>PLAY:</b> 3-8 from A's 20. A10's legal forward pass is caught by A85 at A's 30. In an attempt to tackle the receiver, B22 grabs A85's face mask (incidental) at A's 30. A85 breaks away and circles back behind the neutral zone. He is at A's 17 when (a) he is tackled, or (b) he fumbles and A33 recovers at A's 18. <b>RULING:</b> ??

Hey, come on! What about all the others out there that didn't step up? Or am I the lone village idiot?

Anyway, thanks guys for helping me out. I appreciate your patience and explanations.

Oh man, you guys are putting me on the spot! I will have to check the books, think it through while mowing the lawn, and get back to you guys.

Good question. I'm going to give this a shot to see if I have it.

The first part of this play was a loose ball play. Once A85 caught the pass, the subsequent run became a running play. The spot of the facemask foul is the A's 30.


(a) A85 did himself a disservice when he goes backwards behind the neutral zone and gets tackled. Nothing about that changes the status of the play to a loose ball play again. The facemask foul will be enforced from the end of A85's run, the A-17 because that is the basic spot for fouls by the defense during running plays. It will be 3 & 6 from the A-22. We can't penalize B from the A-30. A85 retreated after the foul and was subsequently tackled for a loss.

(b) Because A85 made it back behind the neutral zone and fumbles, this once again becomes a loose ball play. I don't see anything in the rulebook that says the nuetral zone dissolves after the ball has crossed out of the zone. (Please correct me if I am wrong). A fumble by A in or behind the neutral zone and any run (or runs) that precede it is treated as a loose ball play. Basic spot then becomes the previous spot and that is where the penalty is enforced from. 3rd & 3 from the A-25.

Darn, Mike beat me to it. Honestly, I was thinking along the same lines as Mike. "Does the neutral zone dissolve? No, that's free blocking zone."

So in A, since it is a completed pass, the play becomes a running play. The basic spot would be the end of the run. As someone said earlier, all defensive penalties are enforced from the basic spot, that being where he got tackled.

In B, since you can only have one loose ball play, the loose ball here would be the fumble. Even though he voluntarily ran behind the NZ, the foul would be enforced from the basic spot, the previous spot.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mikesears
[B]Mike , I believe you can have multiple running plays pre down but there can only be one loose ball play .

[QUOTE]Originally posted by James Neil

Quote:

Originally posted by mikesears Quote: Originally posted by Bob M. REPLY: (b) Because A85 made it back behind the neutral zone and fumbles, this once again becomes a loose ball play. I don't see anything in the rulebook that says the nuetral zone dissolves after the ball has crossed out of the zone. (Please correct me if I am wrong). A fumble by A in or behind the neutral zone and any run (or runs) that precede it is treated as a loose ball play. Basic spot then becomes the previous spot and that is where the penalty is enforced from. 3rd & 3 from the A-25. Mike , I believe you can have multiple running plays pre down but there can only be one loose ball play .

That may be true, sorta, and I don't I don't really want to split hairs on the issue, but the rule (10-3-1b and other places I believe) states: A loose-ball play is...a...fumble made by A from in or behind the neutral zone and prior to a change of team possession." So, bascially, any time there is a fumble behind the NZ and team possession has not changed during the down, it would be a loose ball play (even if a run, pass, etc. took the ball beyond the NZ, just so the fumble occured once the ball was back behind the NZ). Now, if A fumbled behind the NZ, recovers the fumble, and proceeds to fumble again behind the NZ, we could argue about whether or not these are separate loose ball plays, but the basic spot remains the same for all (previous spot).

On the other hand, if A has 1/10 from its own 20 yard line, runs to the 25, fumbles, recovers, then runs to the 30 and fumbles again, we definitely have two running plays here. The basic spot for the first (the "first" run, and action during the first loose ball) is the 25, and the basic spot for the second running play (the run after the fumble is recovered and action during the loose ball after the 2nd fumble) is the 30.

Finally, to go back to what Mike said, when A85 fumbles behind the NZ, it "becomes" a loose ball play "again," but I don't think it would necessarily qualify as a "new" loose ball play, per se. This is really a matter of semantics, and I don't think (?) it would have a bearing on penalty enforcement. I hope all of that makes sense.

[Edited by PSU213 on Jun 19th, 2005 at 10:28 AM]

What is the answer to this? Is (b) a loose ball play or a running play?

I think in (b) this would be loose ball, as 10-3-1c and 10-3-1d does not specify whats happens before the fumble (such as a pass causing the ball to go beyond the NZ).

(And I apologize if you were asking grantsrc, as opposed to the forum in general.)

REPLY: I think it's clear to everyone that (a) is a running play. just happens to be a running play that ends behind the NZ, but a running play nonetheless. In (b), all action during the down occurred during a single loose ball play. JN and PSU213 have it right. There is no running play involved. What made it a loose ball play clearly was A's fumble after he returned behind the NZ. That the ball was beyond the NZ at some time during the down is immaterial. An important thing to remember: There is no defined end to a loose ball play. The only way a loose ball play definitively ends is when the down ends or when there is a change of possession. I can't think of any other way for a loose ball play to reach a definite conclusion. Anyone?

[Edited by Bob M. on Jun 20th, 2005 at 12:09 PM]

So with all that said, the enforcement spots for both A and B would be the previous spot?

I would agree that only the end of the down or change of possession "ends" a loose ball play, as, without those actions, the ball can always return behind the NZ for a fumble, backward pass, etc.

In (A), the foul would be enforced from the end of the run.

All defensive fouls are administered from the end of the run. Since the run ended behind the NZ, I thought that had bearing on the spot. Now I realize, that is only for offensive fouls.

I am so glad that I am not a white hat. That way I can really nail this down so I do not make mistakes like this.

What about this play?
1st and 10 from A45. A11 throws a forward pass to A85. While the ball is in the air, B29 grabs the facemask of A88. A88 is not near the ball. A85 catches the ball and runs to B35.

Ruling: The foul is enforced from the end of the run even though the foul occured while the ball was in the air. Since the ball is caught, the basic spot becomes the end of the run. A ball, 1st and 10 from B30.

Loose ball play. A can take the results of the play OR have the foul enforced from the previous spot. If the facemask foul would have occured after the pass we caught, it would have been enforced from the end of the run.

I'll take issue with that...

10-3-1 A loose-ball play is action during:

take "b" for example...

b. A legal forward pass

The key word there is DURING. So when the legal forward pass ends- so does the loose-ball play. We now have a running play since after the pass ends (like if the ball is caught) we have "action not included under Article 1" (10-3-2)

I'm not sure what you're getting at, Bob- the loose-ball play does have a defined end.

I think what Bob was saying (and apologize for speaking for Bob--set me straight if need be Bob) was that if the pass is caught beyond the NZ, it now "becomes" a running play, but if the ball is (a) caught behind the NZ, or the runner (b) brings the ball back behind the NZ and then proceeds to fumble in (a) or (b), it once again is a loose ball play.

REPLY: Andrew...what I'm trying to get across (and obviously not so well) is that the end of a loose ball play really can't be determined <u>definitively</u> until the down ends or until a change of possession. Take your example...After the legal forward pass is completed, it will probably start a running play. But...what if the receiver comes back behind the NZ and then fumbles and then A (or B) recovers? Then all of the action during the entire down occurred during the loose ball play that began with the snap. There was no running play in such a down. Now, if the receiver stays beyond the NZ and is tackled, then yes, all action after the reception occurred during a running play, but you can't really tell that until after the down ends. Another way of saying essentially the same thing: Before a change of possession, if you drop a flag, you can say with 100% certainty at that time that the foul occurred during a loose ball play if it occurred during a legal forward pass, a free kick or scrimmage kick or while the ball is loose following a fumble, backward pass, or illegal kick behind the neutral zone. But if it occurred while the ball is a Team A player's possession, you can't say for sure <b>at that time</b> whether the foul occurred during a loose ball play or during a running play. You can only determine that for sure after the down ends or after a change of possession.

I think I see what you're getting at. The way I like to think about it is that if you ever have a loose-ball play then everything that happened before that automatically becomes part of it.

REPLY: That sounds reasonable. So "...if you ever have a loose-ball play then everything that happened before that automatically becomes part of it," even though it might have had the <i>appearance,</i> of a running play when it happened. I think we're in agreement here. Another "ridiculous" play to illustrate the point: <b>PLAY:</b> A's legal forward pass is caught by A85 beyond the NZ. A56 holds his opponent downfield <u>after</u> the reception. A85 fumbles and the ball bounces back behind the NZ. A12 picks it up and punts it downfield. B23 catches the kick and is tackled at his 20. <b>RULING:</b> Even though it <u>appeared</u> that A56's hold took place during a running play, A85's fumble and A12's subsequent punt made the entire down up to the point of B23's possession of the scrimmage kick one big loose ball play. If B wants to accept the penalty for A's hold, enforcement will be from the previous spot.

A loose ball play is defined as action during backward pass (including the snap), illegal kick or fumble made by A from in or behind the neutral zone and prior to a change of team possession.

Doesn't this mean the fumble must originate from in or behind the neutral zone, or in other words, the runner must fumble while in or behind the neutral zone? Where the fumble is recovered is of no consequence. The fumble is then treated as part of a running play. When the ball goes back behind the neutral zone and is recovered, it is still a running play because it does not meat the defintion of a loose ball play. BUT, once A12 picks the ball up and kicks it, the run or runs that preceded the loose ball play is then treated as part of that loose ball play. WOW! Now that we are discussing it, it's bound to happen in one of my games :D

I think that, yes, where the ball is fumbled matters, and where is it recovered does not. As the rule says--"made."

REPLY: Mike, It isn't 2-31-1c that makes this a loose ball play since, as you point out, A's fumble occurred beyond the NZ. Rather, it's 2-31-1d that governs the situation. Since the ball was eventually legally kicked by Team A, everything that preceded that kick becomes part of the loose ball play:
<b>NF 2-31-1d - </b><i>A loose ball play is action during... (d.) The run or runs which precedes such legal or illegal kick, legal forward pass, backward pass or fumble.</i> The fact that the fumble occurred beyond the NZ doesn't change the fact that A85's run preceded the legal kick and therefore becomes part of the loose ball play.

LJ, I like that....

LJ845, I have never heard that one before....

[QUOTE]Originally posted by grantsrc
[B]Fumbles are not loose ball plays, they are loose balls. (10-3-1)

Loose ball plays are the action DURING a legal kick or pass, not a fumble. (10-3-1)

Thus, fouls during the fumble are enforced from the end of the run (where the ball came loose).

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Forksref
[B]Depends on where the fumble occurs... and who fumbled.

A loose-ball play is action during:
10-3-1c A backward pass (including the snap), illegal kick or fumble made by A in or behind the neutral zone prior to a change of team possession.

So if A10 takes the snap and retreats 5 yards where he fumbles, and A67 holds at the line of scrimmage before the fumble, then A12 recovers 8 yards behind the line of scrimmage... the basic spot is the previous spot.

13will

That's correct. Fumble in or behind neutral zone is part of loose ball PLAY. (previous spot enforcement) Fumble beyond the neutral zone is a loose BALL. (end of run enforcement)

Illegal formation, on the offense. 5 yards from the previous spot... still 2nd down.

Coach: "Can you give me a number on that?"

Ref: "Uh, no, I can't."

That's as good as it gets!


Ref: "A bunch of numbers between 1 and 99."

Forksref - THAT is a good reply!

James