mechanic for a fair catch

kentref · #1 (**permalink**) Sat May 28, 2005, 09:17am

After a fair catch, or an awarded fair catch, R has the choice of putting the ball in play by snap or free kick. In many situations, like for example, R has the ball on its own 20, they will obviously snap the ball, but what is the proper mechanic for offering this choice, (and for that matter, should officials always offer the choice)? Put another way, which official (R or U) asks the R captain for his choice? Is the same procedure used after every fair catch or awarded fair catch, or are there some exceptions?

The Roamin' Umpire · #2 (**permalink**) Sun May 29, 2005, 10:35am

In my experience, the choice is not actively offered by the officials. If the coach wants a free kick (haven't seen it yet), he needs to inform the R before the ball is put into play. My take on it is that by lining up in a regular formation, the coach has made his choice apparent.

ljudge · #3 (**permalink**) Sun May 29, 2005, 09:01pm

kentref, good question. I asked about this last season when I moved over to Referee. Our position representative told me he offers the full range of choices when the ball is at or inside K's 30 which would be a 40-yard field goal if R elects to free kick. Some officials are of the opinion that a coach should know this rule and when to ask for a free kick with the opinion that the R was "helping" the receiving team in this situation by informing the coach of this rule. I disagree with this and like what my rep told me. I would give the entire explanation when inside K's 30 and I would tell the captain if he accepted the penalty I would then give him the choice to snap or free kick the ball. And, I would give the choice to the captain. The only time I recall not going to a player is I have the wings go to the coach of the receiving team when a kickoff is OOB. Our org does that as a practice.

Bob M. · #4 (**permalink**) Tue May 31, 2005, 11:24am

Quote:

Originally posted by ljudge
kentref, good question. I asked about this last season when I moved over to Referee. Our position representative told me he offers the full range of choices when the ball is at or inside K's 30 which would be a 40-yard field goal if R elects to free kick. Some officials are of the opinion that a coach should know this rule and when to ask for a free kick with the opinion that the R was "helping" the receiving team in this situation by informing the coach of this rule. I disagree with this and like what my rep told me. I would give the entire explanation when inside K's 30 and I would tell the captain if he accepted the penalty I would then give him the choice to snap or free kick the ball. And, I would give the choice to the captain. The only time I recall not going to a player is I have the wings go to the coach of the receiving team when a kickoff is OOB. Our org does that as a practice.

REPLY: Joe...in my humble opinion, I don't think it's appropriate for an official to offer the captain a choice of snap or free kick in this situation. Our job is to offer him the options associated with the penalty. In the case of KCI that amounts to (1) decline the penalty and take the result of the play, (2) penalize K 15 yards from the previous spot and replay the down, or (3) accept an awarded fair catch at the spot of the foul. Once the captain makes that choice, I believe it's up to the coach to decide what he wants to do next. He needs to decide how he next wants to put the ball in play. Yes, the rule is somewhat esoteric, but I don't believe it's our duty to help the coach decide what to do on the field once we've completed the penalty. Just my humble opinion.

Now that said, I would inform a captain if his acceptance of a penalty would extend the period, even though the coach should know that too. But I believe that is different than telling a coach his options for putting the ball in play after a penalty is accepted. I guess I could be accused of talking out of both sides of my mouth. Oh well...

Theisey · #5 (**permalink**) Tue May 31, 2005, 12:20pm

The option to free kick is not part of the penalty enforcement. What I mean by that is under the description of "the penalty", it's not mentioned. We as officials have an obligation to detail the enforcement, but not how you as your team will deal with the next play.

The words about free kicking or snapping are part of the basic rule(s) under the topic of Fair Catch.

Translate that to mean, we do not have to say anything about a free kick and IMHO should not either.

LJ845 · #6 (**permalink**) Tue May 31, 2005, 12:40pm

Our crew does not give options following a fair catch, as we believe that this crosses the line into coaching.

twref · #7 (**permalink**) Tue May 31, 2005, 01:17pm

I would appreciate someone giving me an example/scenario in which this would come into play. Telling the offended team that acceptance of the foul on the defensive team extends the quarter/game makes sense. But what does that have to do with a fair catch as it relates to the next play as a free kick or just snapping the ball?

Bob M. · #8 (**permalink**) Tue May 31, 2005, 02:11pm

Quote:

Originally posted by twref
I would appreciate someone giving me an example/scenario in which this would come into play. Telling the offended team that acceptance of the foul on the defensive team extends the quarter/game makes sense. But what does that have to do with a fair catch as it relates to the next play as a free kick or just snapping the ball?

REPLY: Sorry...I didn't mean to confuse the issue. What I tried to say (maybe not very well) was that while I would not offer a coach information about how he might want to put the ball in play after a fair catch or awarded fair catch since the penalty is already completed, I would offer him information about the effect of acceptance of a penalty on the possible extension of a period. Does that help clear any confusion? I wasn't trying to tie the two things (fair catch and extension of period) together. Just trying to show how I would treat those two things differently.

twref · #9 (**permalink**) Tue May 31, 2005, 02:34pm

Bob-I probably needed to explain my question a little better. I was actually refering to kentref's original post. In what scenario would a coach want to use a free kick instead of a scrimmage snap and what does this have to do with a fair catch vs. R1 fielding a kick and running with it? Is the scenario K kicks the ball with 10 seconds to go, R feels if they catch and run with the ball the clock will run off so they fair catch? I'm lost.

kdf5 · #10 (**permalink**) Tue May 31, 2005, 02:45pm

Bob M: I agree. You are not coaching when you explain that a period may or may not be extended due to a penalty. It's his responsibility to know what to do AFTER penalty enforcement.

Bob M. · #11 (**permalink**) Tue May 31, 2005, 05:18pm

Quote:

Originally posted by twref
Bob-I probably needed to explain my question a little better. I was actually refering to kentref's original post. In what scenario would a coach want to use a free kick instead of a scrimmage snap and what does this have to do with a fair catch vs. R1 fielding a kick and running with it? Is the scenario K kicks the ball with 10 seconds to go, R feels if they catch and run with the ball the clock will run off so they fair catch? I'm lost.

REPLY: At the risk of telling you something you already know, I'll go out on a limb.

After a fair catch or an awarded fair catch following KCI, the offended team may choose to put the ball in play either (a) with a standard run-of-the-mill scrimmage play, or (b) a free kick. The important thing in (b) is that if the free kick passes over the crossbar between the uprights, they are awarded three points--just like a field goal. I actually saw this happen a number of years ago in a state final where the eventual winner trailed by a point with very little time left on the clock. On a short punt, they signalled and made the fair catch just beyond the line of scrimmage. On the next play they executed a free kick that was good and they won the title. The kicker was the son of the current UVA coach Al Groh.

It's only after a fair catch or awarded fair catch that the team has option (b). Also, if you officiate under NCAA rules, you're probably doubly confused since they don't have option (b) at all--even after a FC or awarded FC.

A team would probably use this option if they needed three points or less and there wasn't much time on the clock, or in a defensive low-scoring battle if they have a good kicker and these points might be the difference in the game. But remember, it's only available to Federation football and then only after a FC or an awarded FC.)

I hope this helps. If not, let me know where I'm missing the boat.

Dommer1 · #12 (**permalink**) Wed Jun 01, 2005, 05:10am

Actually, the NFL also has a fair catch kick. Anyone ever see one?

ljudge · #13 (**permalink**) Wed Jun 01, 2005, 07:22am

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob M.

Once the captain makes that choice, I believe it's up to the coach to decide what he wants to do next. He needs to decide how he next wants to put the ball in play. Yes, the rule is somewhat esoteric, but I don't believe it's our duty to help the coach decide what to do on the field once we've completed the penalty.

So, Bob are you saying after the penalty has been accepted it's still unacceptable to ask the coach how he wants to put the ball in play? I absolutely agree it's up to the coach to decide what he wants to do next. Do I understand you correctly in that you feel we're "coaching the coach" if we tell him what his options are? In other words if he doesn't know those options even exist is the onus on him to know the rules better or is it our job to let him know what options are available to him?

Snake~eyes · #14 (**permalink**) Wed Jun 01, 2005, 10:12am

Quote:

Originally posted by Dommer1
Actually, the NFL also has a fair catch kick. Anyone ever see one?

Nope, but I have heard madden talk about it.

cowbyfan1 · #15 (**permalink**) Thu Jun 02, 2005, 03:55am

Quote:

Originally posted by Snake~eyes

Quote:

Originally posted by Dommer1
Actually, the NFL also has a fair catch kick. Anyone ever see one?

Nope, but I have heard madden talk about it.

Parcells actually will practice it during camp.
Never have seen it tho.

I agree we give the penelty options but up to the coach to know he can free kick it. He needs to let us know so we can 1.) get into postion and 2.) let the defense know so they can get lined up properly. i.e. 10 yards off the kicking line/LOS.