Weekly STC: Mechanics

[ljudge]

OK, not a test question but it's my weekly item. I'm a day early but headed to Jacksonville and won't have access to a computer for a few days.

Two bean bag items:

First, I've always been taught to ALWAYS have a bean bag down on the ground on fumbles. Why would a Referee need to bag anything behind the LOS. The only instance I could think of is after a fumble (which comes after a turnover). I asked this question and no one really had an answer only that "it's always been done that way." I can't think of any reason a Referee would have a bag on fumbles behind the LOS other than it's a "habit."

Second, should the Referee or Umpire drop a bag when a QB scrambles and subsequently throws a foward pass near the LOS. My U and I had a discussion about this issue earlier in the season. I had a QB throw the ball very close to the LOS so I dropped a bag at this feet. At halftime I said how close he was go stepping over the line and that I had a bag. It didn't annoy my umpire but he said "that's my call, why did you have a bag...a referee should NEVER have that call." The lesson learned is that we weren't quite on the same page with that one and it's something now on my pre-game cards. I have been always taught to throw the bag to the line where the QB released the ball and continue to officiate. Then flag if my BB is beyond the LOS. I'm looking for how other referees and umpires handle this situation. Do you have a bag? And, who has the flag?

[nvfoa15]

My take on bean bags is "Do it for one. Do it for all." This way it becomes rote and the bean bag will be down when it needs to be. I know that there is no real use for a bean bag by the referee for fumbeles behind the LOS, but what would happen if there is a fumble after the fumble. If the referee is "used" to not throwing the bean bag then he may forget or be slow in dropping the bean bag when he needs to. Just MHO.

With regard to the passer scrambling, I tell my umpire (part of pre game) that I will follow the passer where ever he goes and I will have the spot of the pass. Therefore, unless the spot is obvisiouly beyond the LOS, I will flag for illegal foward pass. What I do is eyeball that spot and when I get to it I will check the box to see if it was beyond the LOS. I then will drop a flag if necessary.

[Ed Hickland]

Originally posted by ljudge


Second, should the Referee or Umpire drop a bag when a QB scrambles and subsequently throws a foward pass near the LOS. My U and I had a discussion about this issue earlier in the season. I had a QB throw the ball very close to the LOS so I dropped a bag at this feet. At halftime I said how close he was go stepping over the line and that I had a bag. It didn't annoy my umpire but he said "that's my call, why did you have a bag...a referee should NEVER have that call." The lesson learned is that we weren't quite on the same page with that one and it's something now on my pre-game cards. I have been always taught to throw the bag to the line where the QB released the ball and continue to officiate. Then flag if my BB is beyond the LOS. I'm looking for how other referees and umpires handle this situation. Do you have a bag? And, who has the flag?

Cannot 100 percent agree with the umpire. Referee has responsibility for the player under the snapper and should be following closely and in position to see where his feet are when he releases the ball. The umpire should be on the LOS in position to see the passer's release.

Who should toss the bag? My answer is the official who sees it, R, U, or, both.

In fact, when it comes to selling that call, just point to the two bean bags laying on the ground

That said, if the passer is obviously over the line and there is no doubt, toss the flag and not the bag.

[Bob Mc]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ed Hickland
[B]

Originally posted by ljudge


Cannot 100 percent agree with the umpire.

I agree with your dis-agreement. There are certian things that will fall to an individual official to "make the call" but areas of responsibility do overlap and in those cases the "call" should be made by the person in the best position to do so. Plus as Ed stated R would have the responsibility for the passer and action around same.

[Warrenkicker]

There are very few instances where the spot of a fumble behind the LOS needs to be known. I started out officiating with bagging everything. Then I learned about the spot of fumbles behind the LOS and how seldom they are important to know their location and stopped bagging them. But now I am back on the side of bagging everything.

By bagging the fumble you are acknowledging the fact that something happened that may not have been seen from either sideline. This bag flying in will show your wings that something has happened and may stop that over-zealous wing from blowing the play dead just because he though the play had to be over (come on Larry, it's not even in your zone). So even though the spot is usually unimportant the act of throwing the bag does have importance. It also helps if R doesn't have to think about if he should throw it or not just because of where it happened.

Illegal forward pass is R's call. Official's manual says U may assist R in this call and either can throw the flag. U will probably even have the best spot. R may be 10 yards behind the QB and can't tell for sure. Even if R is the only one to throw the flag he should always talk to U about what happened and confirm the spot.

[MJT]

Originally posted by ljudge
OK, not a test question but it's my weekly item. I'm a day early but headed to Jacksonville and won't have access to a computer for a few days.

Two bean bag items:

First, I've always been taught to ALWAYS have a bean bag down on the ground on fumbles. Why would a Referee need to bag anything behind the LOS. The only instance I could think of is after a fumble (which comes after a turnover). I asked this question and no one really had an answer only that "it's always been done that way." I can't think of any reason a Referee would have a bag on fumbles behind the LOS other than it's a "habit."

Second, should the Referee or Umpire drop a bag when a QB scrambles and subsequently throws a foward pass near the LOS. My U and I had a discussion about this issue earlier in the season. I had a QB throw the ball very close to the LOS so I dropped a bag at this feet. At halftime I said how close he was go stepping over the line and that I had a bag. It didn't annoy my umpire but he said "that's my call, why did you have a bag...a referee should NEVER have that call." The lesson learned is that we weren't quite on the same page with that one and it's something now on my pre-game cards. I have been always taught to throw the bag to the line where the QB released the ball and continue to officiate. Then flag if my BB is beyond the LOS. I'm looking for how other referees and umpires handle this situation. Do you have a bag? And, who has the flag?

Dropping a bean bag on a fumble behind the NZ does not serve a purpose as far as penalty enforcement goes, BUT does let everyone know you saw a fumble. This is why many will still bag it. Personally, we do on our crew, but as stated by others as well, it is not necessary.

You U really should not be so "emphatic" unless he is 100% sure he is correct, and he is NOT. The officials manual specifically states this is the responsibility of the R, and the U can "assist" him. The most important thing, however, is that someone gets a flag down if he is beyond the LOS. Make sure you "get it right."

[Theisey]

Please, don't fling a bag halfway across the field to mark the spot. Just drop a bag at the yardline where possession was lost. The fact that a ball was loose and rolling around should provide enough info that there was a fumble or not. Players know when the ball is fumbled, listen to them and hold you whistle unless you are positive the runner was down prior to the ball coming loose.

As far as an enforcment spot, the spot of a fumble isn't when behind the NZ. NCAA officials will usually drop a bag on fumbles behind the NZ because if the ball winds up OOB in advance of the fumble, it will be returned to the bag.
NF has no such rule, so dropping is not needed. But I've changed as my years roll on and will knock any official who does drop a bag in this situation.

[PSU213]

We have gone back and forth on this fumble/beanbag issue. I think the "best" argument in favor of the bag is that fans, players, fellow officals, etc. have become accustomed to seeing a bag indicate a fumble. While the spot is not important under NF rules, the bag "shows" everyone there was a fumble, especially on a close play (such as was the QB's arm going foward before the ball came out?).

That having been said, the spot is indeed not important 99.99% of the time. The only senario I can think of where it would be important is an IW while the ball is loose after the fumble. However, I can't think of a reason why a team would want to take the ball at the spot of the fumble if it is behind the LOS, but I suppose you could argue that the spot matters. Is there some other situation I am missing where the spot of the fumble is important?

I tend not to throw the bag on a fumble clearly behind the LOS, but I suppose I really don't see the harm in having one.

[Ed Hickland]

Think about this. No matter where the ball is fumbled -- possession is lost -- if a foul occurs during the period when the ball is loose, the basic spot is where possession is lost?

A's ball 1st and 10 at A's 30. QB, A7, takes ball and rolls to his right. A84 on an end-around takes possession of the ball at A's 25. A84 moving left fumbles the ball on the left side at A's 26. A77 recovers the fumble at A's 28. During the scramble for the ball A23 blocks B74 below the waist at A's 27.

The basic spot is A's 26 -- where A84 loss possession. There should be a bean bag at A's 26 to mark the loss of possession.

[Bill D]

Ed,
NF 10-3-1c, a fumble by A from in or behind the neutral zone is a loose ball play, basic spot is previous spot. This is not the same as fumble during a running play when the spot where related run ended is basic spot. Spot of foul is at A 27, behind basic spot,so enforcement spot is A 27. Spot of fumble is immaterial.