IND vs NE

sm_bbcoach · #1 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 17, 2005, 01:13pm

Wondering if anyone can clarify for me what the exact call was for this play:

Manning under center. Gets up (as he had done all game) to call an audible. This time though, he walked towards the left sideline, waving his hands. The ball was snapped to the running back.

Is this another version of the "sleeper" trick play. It is agianst the "spirit" of the game or is there a NFL rule about this?

Would this play be allowed to go off in NFHS games?

mcrowder · #2 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 17, 2005, 01:24pm

First, I don't believe there is any "Spirit of the game" nonsense in NFL rules. Their players are not 16 years old.

Second, I don't think I'd be flagging this one in a game I was working either (and Andre Ware used this play more than once while at Univ of Houston, with Klingler in the backfield). I can see why some might, and it is borderline on NCAA rules, but I'd let this one go.

TXMike · #3 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 17, 2005, 01:39pm

From the Palm Beach Post.com:

Give Manning all the blame he deserves, but Dungy and his staff were clearly less prepared than Belichick.

The Colts coaches failed Sunday in little ways and big ones. A little one: All week, the Colts practiced a trick play in which Manning would pretend to run to his wide receivers as if waving off a misunderstood audible. Then the ball would be snapped directly to running back Edgerrin James. James' run for 11 yards was waved off for a penalty, a false start on Manning.

"You know, I pride myself in knowing the rules," Dungy said. "That' a rule I didn't know, that the quarterback, what they say is once you go under the center, if you move away you have to be set for a second. I guess it's a fairly obscure rule, but it is in there somewhere, I guess."

And from the rule book:
S.N. 4 ANY EXTENSION OF HANDS BY A PLAYER UNDER CENTER AS IF TO RECEIVE THE SNAP IS A FALSE START UNLESS, WHILE UNDER CENTER, HE RECEIVES THE SNAP. THIS INCLUDES ANY PLAYER UNDER OR BEHIND THE CENTER PLACING HIS HANDS ON HIS KNEES OR ON THE BODY OF THE CENTER. IT IS LEGAL FOR A PLAYER UNDER CENTER WHO HAS EXTENDED HIS HANDS TO LEGALLY GO IN MOTION. IF THE ACTION DRAWS AN IMMEDIATE REACTION FROM OPPONENT(S), WHO IS IN CLOSE PROXIMITY, IT IS A FALSE START. IF A QUARTERBACK GOES IN MOTION, HE MUST COME TO A COMPLETE STOP PRIOR TO THE BALL BEING SNAPPED.

MJT · #4 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 17, 2005, 01:51pm

Quote:

Originally posted by sm_bbcoach
Wondering if anyone can clarify for me what the exact call was for this play:

Manning under center. Gets up (as he had done all game) to call an audible. This time though, he walked towards the left sideline, waving his hands. The ball was snapped to the running back.

Is this another version of the "sleeper" trick play. It is agianst the "spirit" of the game or is there a NFL rule about this?

Would this play be allowed to go off in NFHS games?

As TXMike said in the NFL, a FS is the call if a player places his hands "under the center" or on his knees (kind of looking like under the center) and anyone else gets the snap.

If they had him in shotgun, no foul would have been called. The NFL does not have the same "where's the tee" kind of stuff that the NF and NCAA has.

In NF, if he verbally says something, it is USC for sure, and if the use of hand gestures (I believe off the top of my head) is USC as well. I think we would have had a foul if the same thing occured in NF. That is one where if the head coach does not tell me about it when the U and I ask him if they have any "trick plays or formations" in our pregame, he will get nailed for it. The reason he should tell us of anything like that is so we can watch for it, and if it is illegal, tell them ahead of time, so they do not run it.

TXMike · #5 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 17, 2005, 02:07pm

We have had this debate for several years now and I am one NCAA person who says NCAA rules do not prohibit this play. If he is just telling and motioning at players to "reposition", no foul. If he is yelling at coach...no foul. If he says annything like we need another player or one has to get off, etc, then it is a foul as he is using the sub process.

Theisey · #6 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 17, 2005, 02:24pm

NCAA: and his positioning better be one as a BACK when he is moving down the line.

TXMike · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 17, 2005, 02:27pm

...meaning he has transitioned from being a "mugwump" to being a "back", i.e. stopping and then clearly being in the backfield if he starts moving again?

[Edited by TXMike on Jan 17th, 2005 at 07:19 PM]

Theisey · #8 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 17, 2005, 07:12pm

Exactly.. (hehehe) a "mugwomp"! that's good. I gotta remember that one.

Dommer1 · #9 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 18, 2005, 03:20am

The requirement is that he is not a lineman, not that he has to be a back (to be in motion). A QB moving right behind the line is almost for sure to be a back, as he would move behind the "rearmost part other than the legs or feet" of the closest lineman all the time. This play is legal in NCAA.

TXMike · #10 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 18, 2005, 06:29am

That is the point...if he is not a lineman he most assuredly has to be a back because if he is a mugwump then he cannot be in motion. And once he lines up underneath the center he becomes a mugwump and the only way he can change that is to get back to a "normal" back position and stop momentarily. Then he becomes a back.

Dommer1 · #11 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 18, 2005, 09:34am

I'd say that the QB in this position is not a mugwump, but simply a back. That is my take on it. That would mean that he does not have to stop in the backfield before going in motion or before the snap.

Are you saying that he is a mugwump, but a legal one?