Stump the chump - 4 ?s

[MJT]

1. A10 runs for a touchdown. During A's successful try for point by run, B22 is detected holding. After the try, B22 punches A10.

2. 3rd - 7 for A from B's 35. Quarterback A1 drops back to pass. At midfield he is hit and fumbles. While the ball is rolling loose, B55 holds A32. A10 recovers the fumble at B’s 40.

3. 2nd and 12 from A’s 30. A2 runs to midfield where he fumbles. While the ball is loose, A10 blocks B22 below the waist at B’s 45. A77 recovers the loose ball and is downed at B’s 40. The BBW was not against an opponent trying to get the loose ball.

4. 2nd and 12 from A’s 30. A2 runs to midfield where he fumbles. While the ball is loose, A10 blocks B22 below the waist at A’s 45. A77 recovers the loose ball and is down at B’s 40. The BBW was not against an opponent trying to get the loose ball.


[Edited by MJT on Jan 6th, 2005 at 07:26 PM]

[ljudge]

Ruling1 : Try stands. B kicks from his own 15. DQ B22

Ruling 2: A's ball 1st and 10 at B25.

Ruling 3: If the foul is accepted, A's ball 2nd and 7 from A35.

Ruling 4: If the foul is accepted it's 2nd and 12 from A's 30.

[Middleman]

Originally posted by ljudge
Ruling1 : Try stands. B kicks from his own 15. DQ B22

B22 was a busy boy on that play, but his transgressions don't add up to giving the ball back to Team A.

Team A, not B, will kick off from B's 35.

Hmmm ... might be time to be ready for an onsides kick, or maybe a little pooch ??!! Remember, K cannot advance a recovered free kick. Look out for kick-catch interference on this short field. Watch for a fair catch signal away from the ball, and remember, too, that a kick out of bounds could be placed on the 10 ...

... so much fun can happen on these kicks!

[IAUMP]

MJT,

For clarrification purposes, were the holding and illegal blocks (#2-4) made while the offending player was trying to recover the loose ball? If so then there is no penalty on any of these loose ball plays.

[ljudge]

MM - got my A's and B's crossed.

IAUMP - on #4 there is no hold. You can't block blow the waist. on #2 you gave me doubt there. I know you can push or pull to get to a ball but I didn't think you could hold which why I enforced the hold in my ruling.

[MJT]

Originally posted by IAUMP
MJT,

For clarrification purposes, were the holding and illegal blocks (#2-4) made while the offending player was trying to recover the loose ball? If so then there is no penalty on any of these loose ball plays.

No. I have edited the original post to clarify.

[IAUMP]

MJT, thanks for the clarification. I agree that if the BBW was not while the offending player was attempting to recover the loose ball then we have a foul that needs to be called.

Ljudge, if a player can pull a player while attempting to get a loose ball, why couldn't they hold them back from getting the ball. If player A is ahead of B, and B pulls A back, well that is a hold as well. Where is the line that you draw when players are trying to get a loose ball?

[ljudge]

I haven't ever seen this called. I have always been under the impression that if you obviously held (like yanked on the jersey) it would be ruled holding. But, then I guess you can say he's pulling which is legal.

I'm interested to see how we're supposed to rule on this.

[Middleman]

Originally posted by ljudge
I haven't ever seen this called. I have always been under the impression that if you obviously held (like yanked on the jersey) it would be ruled holding. But, then I guess you can say he's pulling which is legal.

I'm interested to see how we're supposed to rule on this.

In my opinion, you have to look at the action of the player. He is permitted to grasp an opponent in an effort to obtain possession of a loose ball. This only takes an instant - grab, pull, dive. If he just grabs and pulls either to keep his opponent away from the ball, or to clear a path for a teammate, then it's not a legal act.

That's the way I look at it. It usually happens so fast, or it's down in a pileup, and so it doesn't get called.

[Bob M.]

REPLY: Middleman is correct. The rules allowing a player to momentarily pull or push an opponent in the back (2-3-4c and 2-3-5b) is solely for the purpose of allowing that player to get to a loose ball. This is not in conflict with 9-2-1c and 9-2-3c which prohibit a player from holding (grasping) an opponent in an attempt to restrain him. If a player were doing the latter (grasping his opponent), it could never be interpreted that he was attempting to get to a loose ball. Two situations:

(1) A fumbled ball is rolling loose around midfield. B21 momentarily grabs A23's jersey and pulls him out of the path to the ball so he (B21) can recover it. LEGAL.

(2) A fumbled ball is rolling loose around midfield. B21 grabs A23 around the waist and and restrains him so that B10 can recover the loose ball. HOLDING by B21.

[MJT]

Originally posted by Bob M.
REPLY: Middleman is correct. The rules allowing a player to momentarily pull or push an opponent in the back (2-3-4c and 2-3-5b) is solely for the purpose of allowing that player to get to a loose ball. This is not in conflict with 9-2-1c and 9-2-3c which prohibit a player from holding (grasping) an opponent in an attempt to restrain him. If a player were doing the latter (grasping his opponent), it could never be interpreted that he was attempting to get to a loose ball. Two situations:

(1) A fumbled ball is rolling loose around midfield. B21 momentarily grabs A23's jersey and pulls him out of the path to the ball so he (B21) can recover it. LEGAL.

(2) A fumbled ball is rolling loose around midfield. B21 grabs A23 around the waist and and restrains him so that B10 can recover the loose ball. HOLDING by B21.

Bob, I agree with you on all accounts.

[Bob M.]

REPLY: And now the $64,000 question...some of you have seen it before on the NFHS Discussion Board:

1) A scrimmage kick beyond the neutral zone is rolling loose near B's goal line and is untouched by B. A21 momentarily grabs A23's B23's (Thanks Middleman!) jersey and pulls him out of the path to the ball, or pushes him in the back, so he (A21) can down it and keep it from entering B's end zone. RULING??


[Edited by Bob M. on Jan 7th, 2005 at 02:59 PM]

[Middleman]

Originally posted by Bob M.
REPLY: And now the $64,000 question...some of you have seen it before on the NFHS Discussion Board:

1) A scrimmage kick beyond the neutral zone is rolling loose near B's goal line and is untouched by B. A21 momentarily grabs A23's jersey and pulls him out of the path to the ball, or pushes him in the back, so he (A21) can down it and keep it from entering B's end zone. RULING??

No problem. A23 is not an opponent. Send the check to the relief fund.

Seriously, A(K) is technically not entitled to possess the ball so these acts when committed by A21 on B23 as described are not legal.

[MJT]

Originally posted by Middleman

No problem. A23 is not an opponent. Send the check to the relief fund.

Seriously, A(K) is technically not entitled to possess the ball so these acts when committed by A21 on B23 as described are not legal.

Oh boy, here we go again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Bob M.]

Monte, I actually sent this question and the one about the ball striking the pylon to Diehl this afternoon. His "out-of-office' message said that he was attending the NFHS Rules Committee Meeting this week. Guess we'll be hearing about 2005 rule changes shortly. Last year's press releease was dated January 12th. Like I said above, I'll probably hear back from Regis before I hear from Diehl...and I didn't even send anything to Regis!