Stump the chump - philosophy questions

[MJT]

1. Do we tell them, or not? Here is the case. Under NF rules, 6-5-4 states "The captain may choose to free kick or snap anywhere between the inbounds line on the yard line through the spot of the FC is made or thru the spot of interference, when a FC is awarded. These choices remain if a DB foul occurs prior to the down, or a foul or any IW occurs during the down and the down is repeated." Let’s say a FC, or awarded FC occurs at the B-35 with 9 seconds left. On the next play we have DPI, or another foul, so the free kick after a FC is still an option for team A after the penalty enforcement and we still have 2 seconds on the clock. Team A is behind by 2 points.

Team A and their coaches are none the wiser of this “opportunity” that by rule exists for them. Do tell them they have this opportunity to free kick from the 20 yard line? Are we required to tell them?

My opinion is, we do not have to tell them. Why? This is not a penalty situation where we need to give them all there options. When R completes a fair catch, or an awarded fair catch, they have that option, but we do not have to tell them they can snap the ball or have a free kick anywhere between the hashes.

That being said, if they know they can do so, and take the free kick option and a penalty occurs, we should tell them that they still have the free kick option cuz that is part of the penalty situation.

That’s my 2 cents, what’s yours?

2. Tell coach penalty options, or not? If you have a very complicated penalty enforcement, one in which the captain could easily be confused, and would be looking to the coach for help anyway, would it be ok to take the captain over by the sidelines so the coach can hear the options? I have seen it done in the NFL and NCAA before, or at least it appears that’s what they are doing. I think it is ok, and if the other coach has a problem with it, tell him you would give him the same courtesy if needed. This would be a 1 or maybe 2 times a year situation at best.

[mcrowder]

Teams/Coaches are required to know the rules. We are not there to remind them. Do you remind the coach before a play that it's legal for him to try a forward pass? Do you remind him on 3rd and 25 from his own inchline that it's legal for him to punt? Of course not - it's part of the rules, not part of penalty enforcement. This sitch is exactly the same. Coaches need to know what they are allowed to do, without prompting from us.

[MJT]

Originally posted by mcrowder
Teams/Coaches are required to know the rules. We are not there to remind them. Do you remind the coach before a play that it's legal for him to try a forward pass? Do you remind him on 3rd and 25 from his own inchline that it's legal for him to punt? Of course not - it's part of the rules, not part of penalty enforcement. This sitch is exactly the same. Coaches need to know what they are allowed to do, without prompting from us.

Would you agree that it is different if they know the rule to take the FK option, that we tell them after a penalty that the option is still there, or do you say they need to know that as well? I think we tell them in this case as it is part of the penalty enforcement, just as we tell them if a penalty results in a LOD if they are hollering to decline it.

[mcrowder]

No, I wouldn't. To take the point to the extreme...

It's legal for them to attempt a forward pass on a play. We should assume that they know that their options on a play that follows a penalty are the same. You would not remind them after a penalty that they have all the same options that they had before the penalty ... so why the exception here. Just because it doesn't come up often?

I think that any time you step outside your bounds to "help" a coach, you run a risk of unfairness. What happens when the OTHER coach finds out you've in essence suggested something to the first coach that helps the first coach score? Even worse, what happens if exactly this scenario happened to his team in previous weeks, but that official didn't remind them of an obscure rule?

It's not our job to help out a coach or a team (I'll admit an exception to this at lower levels, of course) - and once we do so, we begin directly affecting the game instead of officiating it --- a line we should not cross.

To me, reminding a coach in this sitch that he can FK is as bad as saying, as the clock winds down, "Coach, you have 1 timeout left", before he asks.

[Mark Dexter]

Same situation as your #1, but the score is A-17, B-28. Do you still make it a point to tell A that they have the option of the free kick?

What if A was down by 2, but 8 minutes remained in the third quarter?

[MJT]

Originally posted by mcrowder
No, I wouldn't. To take the point to the extreme...

It's legal for them to attempt a forward pass on a play. We should assume that they know that their options on a play that follows a penalty are the same. You would not remind them after a penalty that they have all the same options that they had before the penalty ... so why the exception here. Just because it doesn't come up often?

I think that any time you step outside your bounds to "help" a coach, you run a risk of unfairness. What happens when the OTHER coach finds out you've in essence suggested something to the first coach that helps the first coach score? Even worse, what happens if exactly this scenario happened to his team in previous weeks, but that official didn't remind them of an obscure rule?

It's not our job to help out a coach or a team (I'll admit an exception to this at lower levels, of course) - and once we do so, we begin directly affecting the game instead of officiating it --- a line we should not cross.

To me, reminding a coach in this sitch that he can FK is as bad as saying, as the clock winds down, "Coach, you have 1 timeout left", before he asks.

Ok, but what would you do in this senario. 3rd-4 for A and they have intentional grounding 10 yards behind the LOS. Before you can explain to the captain that it is a spot foul, and a LOD, the coach is hollaring at his captain to "decline" the penalty cuz we want 4th down. Are you not going to tell the captain, "let me explain your options" and make sure he understands it will still be 4th down and they will be back 10 more yards? I am a referee, and most I know agree that if they do not "understand" the situation, make sure they do so they have a fair chance to make a decision. That is good game management by the referee.

Your forward pass statement is not on the same "level" at all as this. In response to your second statement, just because the previous crew did or did not do something is not going to influence my decision. If that was the case I would have allowed a team to have a number 32 on his line, therefor not having 5 players on the line with numbers 50-79 cuz "the officials said we could do it the last 3 weeks.

[kdf5]

Coaches go to the same rules meetings we do, they get the same rule book we do. If they choose not to know the rules then it's not our position to enligthen them.

[MJT]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter
Same situation as your #1, but the score is A-17, B-28. Do you still make it a point to tell A that they have the option of the free kick?

What if A was down by 2, but 8 minutes remained in the third quarter?

If you carefully read what I said, I indicated that I would NOT tell them they had the option originally, but if knew the rule and did it, then a penalty occurs, I would make them aware the option STILL exists after the penalty. I would NOT tell them originally, so no I would not in your above question.
You are missing the point that I would NOT tell them originally, but WOULD if they did it, then we had a penalty.

[ljudge]

Hmmm. Being in my first year in the R position these are things I'm interested in knowing that the "right" thing to do is. I asked this very same question in the referees meeting this season so I would know how to handle this situation.

In looking at your responses I have to ask the following. Are we really explaining the penalty options correctly if we don't provide the captain ALL the information?

Here are two explanations (let's assume K doesn't touch the ball so no FT applies):

I was always under the impression that #2 was the more appropriate explanation.

"Captain, your team was interfered with by the kicking team so here are your choices. You can take them back 15 yards from the previous spot and replay 4th down...or, you can take an awarded fair catch and put the ball in play right there."

Or 2,


"Captain, your team was interfered with by the kicking team so here are your choices. You can take them back 15 yards from the previous spot and replay 4th down...or, you can take an awarded fair catch and put the ball in play right there. If you take the ball right here you will be given the opportunity to put the ball in play by snap or free kick."

I agree what you guys are saying about coaches need to know the rules for appropriate strategy and I also agree we shouldn't "help" them. But, just as we given them facts and data to make a decision (in #1) I'm asking are we really giving ALL the facts and data to make a decision and is it really wrong to provide them? As long as we do that consistently and provide the same courtesy to both teams then I'd ask are we really out of line with providing explanation #2?

[ljudge]

...and one more thing....

These are kids and they can't take a time out to consult with their coach. And, if they don't have the facts to make a decision because we didn't provide them are we really doing a service to the kids? I think we all agree about coaches should know the rules, but the kids sure as heck don't. If the captain gives his choice to replay 4th down and had no way of knowing he could snap or free kick (because we didn't tell him) I'll ask....were we fair to the captain? Remember, this is high school.

[Warrenkicker]

Originally posted by ljudge
Hmmm. Being in my first year in the R position....

So when are you going to change your name?

[ljudge]

Thinking of giving Div III a shot as an LJ since I'm sure they wouldn't take me as an R. Might as well keep the name.

[JugglingReferee]

MJT,

Excellent question.

I've been wrestling about this for about a year now.

Although we play with different rules, the philosophy you mention does exist in our game.

In the Cdn game, the team scored upon (TD only) may elect to receive or kick. We never give the option, because what team, after scored upon, wants to kick to the other team?

Play: A scores a TD (+ convert) to tie the game, with 2 seconds on the clock. After the convert is dead, A1 is flagged for unnecessary roughness. By rule, the only point of application is the ensuing kick-off. If B opts to receive A's kick, then time will likely run out after B's kick-off return. B's only way to win is to return kick the ball through the EZ (a single point in Canada). That's likely not going to happen given the depth that A will kick the ball, even with the 15 yard penalty.

Let's say that B has a fantastic kicker. So, B should choose to kick-off to A. They will still move up 15 yards for the kick-off. Now, B kicker kicks the ball deep and it:

- touches the ground IB and then goes OB through the EZ
- is caught deep in the EZ by A and A is tackled in the EZ

In these scenerios, B will score a single. And they're more likely than the first paragraph.

But how many B coaches know that they can do this?

Not many, I surmise.

I think that officials, at the beginning of the year, should communicate a set a statements to the coaches about things they might not know, such as:

- a team can decline ANY penalty, except the DQ part of a Rough Play foul

- a team can accept a penalty, but decline the yardage portion of the penalty

- a team can kick-off or receive the kick-off following having a TD scored on them

- the safety options (no coaches remember all of them)

- maybe some others

wwcfoa43? ref18? cdnRef? Casey?

[Cagey]

Mike, I believe that coaches should be required to take a Level 1 clinic at the minimum. I coached baseball for many years before I became an umpire. Boy, it changed my point of view of the game.

To bring it back to football, I was white hatting a minor game earlier this year. Last play of the half, QB says he is going to take a knee. He does, but the DE comes in and plows him. I throw the flag for UR.

Immediately, the coach of the OT calls to his captain that he wants to apply the yardage on the kick off in the third quarter. I announce the penalty and the DT coach goes ballistic.

Needless to say, the OT coach had done his homework and knew that there were only two penalties where you could apply the penalty at the start of the next quarter.

If coaches spent time learning the rule book, okay it takes years, they could better coach their team. I know that knowing the rule book made me a better baseball coach.

[ref18]

Originally posted by Cagey


If coaches spent time learning the rule book, okay it takes years, they could better coach their team. I know that knowing the rule book made me a better baseball coach.

You couldn't be more right!!!

Here are some suggested statements I have for coaches, all deal with mis-interpreted rules.

1. I don't care what they do in the US, but a coach can't call a timeout from the bench.

2. If the kick-off goes 10 yards, isn't touched and bounces back into the neutral zone, the kicking team can recover without penalty.

3. There is no such thing as a personal foul in Canadian football.

4. In order for pass interference to be called, the pass must be CATCHABLE!!!

5. Blocking from the rear is legal in the close line play area.

There are other rules that have gone misinterpreted, but I can't remember them now.

That was what stood out most in my mind from working as a line judge this season. (the only guy who actually gets to hear what the coach has to say, how unlucky)