Weekly Questions - A day early...

[Bob M.]

Note: NF and NCAA rulings might differ. Yeah...what else is new!


Question #1:
A 4/10 A4. A99's punt is high and short. B88 is waiting to field the punt. Before the ball can be caught, A77 'blows up' B88 with a vicious, flagrant hit at the B40. The ball hits B88 and rolls to the B45 where A66 recovers while grounded. After the hit, but before the ball is recovered, B88 swears at A77. During the play, B78 is flagged for running into the kicker.


Question #2:
A 4/6 @ B-30. With 2 seconds left in a tied game, A is lined up for a field goal. A3 muffs the snap. While the ball is rolling on the ground, A3 from his knees bats the ball backward to the kicker, A99. A99 picks up the ball and runs to the B-30, stops and kicks the ball. B56 in an attempt to block the kick runs into A99 (not roughing). The ball rolls out of bounds at the B-1. Time expires during the play.

[waltjp]

Lemme take a whack at this...

Answer 1

I have running into the kicker on B78.
Kick Catching Interference on A77.
Personal Foul on A77 for the flagrant hit.
Ignore the touch by B88.
Unsportsmanlike Conduct on B88.
End of kick at B45.

I see a double foul with 2 dead ball fouls.

If both live ball fouls (Running into the kicker and KCI) are accepted the down will be replayed after enforcement of the dead ball fouls. A will be penalized 1/2 distance to A2 for the flagrant hit. Ball is then moved 15 yards to A17 for the USC. Result: 1/10 A17.

[Bob M.]

REPLY: Walt, Count your fouls again. Are you sure you have two DBFs?

[KWH]

NFHS Answer 1
1) Live ball Kick Catch Interference against A77
2) Live ball flagerant Personal Foul against A77
3) Live ball Running into kicker against B78
* The live ball fouls all offset, however, A77 is disqualified
then,
4) Dead ball unsportmanlike conduct is enforced against B88 from the A4,
* Result of the play will be 1/10 @ A19

NFHS Answer 2
1) Live ball illegal bat by A3
2) Live ball Running into the kicker by B56
* The live ball fouls offset, extend the period for one untimed down, 4/6 @ B30

Based on the way Bob descried play number 2, A99 established himself as a kicker.
HOWEVER, if it was not reasonably certain that A99 would kick the ball, I would then have no foul against B56.
Without the foul against B56, B would most likely decline the illegal bat by A3, and we would proceed to overtime with a clean slate.

[waltjp]

Originally posted by Bob M.
REPLY: Walt, Count your fouls again. Are you sure you have two DBFs?

Well...not when you ask me like that.

I was thinking the flagrant hit would be considered a dead ball foul also.

[cdnRef]

Ok, my turn. (federation, I dunno squat about NCAA)

Answer #1

Two live ball fouls prior to a change in posession = penalties wash and replay the down regardless of the outcome of the play. Only in this case A77 has additionally earned the right to watch the remainder of the game from the stands or the parking lot or some place not on the field. I don't see any dead ball fouls here at all so that doesn't really factor in. As for signals...signal a PF against K, PF and UC on R followed by a 'declined' signal. Send your line judge to talk to the coaches about what's going on.

Result = Replay the down.

Answer #2

WH is going to be busy and have to show some game awareness. In this case we have illegal batting by A3 - I'd be prepared to let the incidental contact with the kicker go provided that it was not clear the ball would be kicked. If the B56 did draw a flag then the fouls are during the same live-ball period prior to a change in posession so the fouls wash and we replay the down.

Result(a) = B will probably decline the penalty and the game ends

Result (b) = replay down. one untimed down.


How'd I do?

[KWH]

Originally posted by cdnRef

How'd I do?
[/B]

I suggest you read NFHS Rules 9-5-1b, 10-2-1, 10-2-4, and most of all 10-4-5a.

[cdnRef]

Nuts...one day I'll remember that UC gets tacked on to the end of everything else...thanks KWH...

[Jim S]

Bob, for #2 was the kicker still in or behind the NZ when he kicked the ball? Tough to tell by the description.

[MJT]

Originally posted by Bob M.
Note: NF and NCAA rulings might differ. Yeah...what else is new!


Question #1:
A 4/10 A4. A99's punt is high and short. B88 is waiting to field the punt. Before the ball can be caught, A77 'blows up' B88 with a vicious, flagrant hit at the B40. The ball hits B88 and rolls to the B45 where A66 recovers while grounded. After the hit, but before the ball is recovered, B88 swears at A77. During the play, B78 is flagged for running into the kicker.


Question #2:
A 4/6 @ B-30. With 2 seconds left in a tied game, A is lined up for a field goal. A3 muffs the snap. While the ball is rolling on the ground, A3 from his knees bats the ball backward to the kicker, A99. A99 picks up the ball and runs to the B-30, stops and kicks the ball. B56 in an attempt to block the kick runs into A99 (not roughing). The ball rolls out of bounds at the B-1. Time expires during the play.

Here is my take.
NF
#1. B’s coach is going to be ticked at the end of this one. First off, the muff is ignored since the hit on B88 caused him to come into contact with the ball. I take it you want not just KCI, but a PF on A77. Unless it is an elbow or something, I think we just have KCI even if he lays him out. Since you have a double foul it doesn’t makes a difference if you call PF or KCI unless you think A77 should be disqualified for his actions. I guess you could call a multiple foul on A77 as well. If we do not have a double foul, unless you want to eject A77 or call multiple fouls, the better call for R is the KCI cuz then R can take an awarded fair catch if they want. If you do not eject A77 and call a PF instead of KCI, R would have to have the 15 yard PF penalty enforced from the PS and rekick. If the kick was poor, or if time is a major factor, R may want the awarded fair catch. We need to be discussing this before we make the penalty call. The foul on A77 and the running into the kicker will result in a double foul, then the USC will be enforced from succeeding spot (the PS) and it will be 1-10 for A at A’s 19. B’s coach will need an explanation and still be ticked off thinking you screwed it up.

#2. I am going to give B56 some latitude in his running into unless it was VERY obvious a kick was going to be made.
If you call B56 for running into kicker, then the ill batting by A3 will result in a double foul and you must have an untimed down.
If you do not call a foul on B, then they will undoubtedly decline the foul by A and the game will go into overtime.

NCAA: I do not think we have any differences, but I will be corrected if there are.

[MJT]

Originally posted by KWH
NFHS Answer 1
1) Live ball Kick Catch Interference against A77
2) Live ball flagerant Personal Foul against A77
3) Live ball Running into kicker against B78
* The live ball fouls all offset, however, A77 is disqualified
then,
4) Dead ball unsportmanlike conduct is enforced against B88 from the A4,
* Result of the play will be 1/10 @ A19

NFHS Answer 2
1) Live ball illegal bat by A3
2) Live ball Running into the kicker by B56
* The live ball fouls offset, extend the period for one untimed down, 4/6 @ B30

Based on the way Bob descried play number 2, A99 established himself as a kicker.
HOWEVER, if it was not reasonably certain that A99 would kick the ball, I would then have no foul against B56.
Without the foul against B56, B would most likely decline the illegal bat by A3, and we would proceed to overtime with a clean slate.

Not that it matters really, but the USC is a live ball foul in this case. It is enforced the same (succeeding spot), whether or not it is live or dead ball.

[Base]

Originally posted by MJT
#2. I am going to give B56 some latitude in his running into unless it was VERY obvious a kick was going to be made.
If you call B56 for running into kicker, then the ill batting by A3 will result in a double foul and you must have an untimed down.
If you do not call a foul on B, then they will undoubtedly decline the foul by A and the game will go into overtime.

NCAA: I do not think we have any differences, but I will be corrected if there are.
[/B]

I believe there is no illegal batting under NCAA rules (9-4-1-c or 9-4-2) and therefore only one foul (running into kicker), extended period and untimed down from B-25
(I presume that the spot of the kick was behind the NZ and it was obvious, that kick would be made)

[MJT]

Originally posted by Base

I believe there is no illegal batting under NCAA rules (9-4-1-c or 9-4-2) and therefore only one foul (running into kicker), extended period and untimed down from B-25
(I presume that the spot of the kick was behind the NZ and it was obvious, that kick would be made) [/B]

You are correct! This is a BIG difference in the particular play mentioned.

[Bob M.]

REPLY: Yes Jim, I meant to specify that A's kick was from behind the neutral zone. It wasn't very clear...