Does the Clock Start on the Ready or Snap

[Green]

Third down ends with the clock running. On fourth down, K punts, ball is fair caught beyond the line. During the down, K is flagged for motion, R is flagged for roughing the kicker. Penalties off-set, replay the down. Question: Does the clock start on the ready or snap. Please give section in the rule book.

[Edited by Green on Nov 20th, 2004 at 12:04 PM]

[MJT]

Originally posted by Green
Third down ends with the clock running. On fourth down, K punts, ball is fair caught beyond the line. During the down, K is flagged for motion, R is flagged for roughing the kicker. Penalties off-set, replay the down. Question: Does the clock start on the ready or snap. Please give section in the rule book.

[Edited by Green on Nov 20th, 2004 at 12:04 PM]

The clock will start with the RFP. The reason is none of 3-4-3 (start the clock on the snap) have been met. There was not a COP, since the double foul is resulting in the replay. Therefor we go back to the previous play which was the clock running.

[mikesears]

On the snap. The fair catch caused the down to end an also stopped the clock. If the ball had not been fair caught and were dead inbounds after the punt, it would have started on the RFP.

[MJT]

Originally posted by mikesears
On the snap. The fair catch caused the down to end an also stopped the clock. If the ball had not been fair caught and were dead inbounds after the punt, it would have started on the RFP.

I see that in 3-4-4h as well Mike, but in 3-4-4a it also says the clock stops the ball "when the down ends following a foul." Just because we stop the clock does not mean we will then always start the clock on the snap. Therefor I think we have to look at 3-4-3 which is the rule that states "when the clock shall start on the snap."

[Theisey]

NF: we've covered this territory before very early in the year either here or those other forums.

See case book play 3.4.3 Sit-A (a)
Yes, there are no fouls in that play, but the words are the clocked was stopped because of the fair catch.
That alone was the action the really caused the down to end and it stopped the clock.

Same play but what if the scrimmage kick went OOB? Clocked was stopped for that. Penalties offset, clock starts on the Snap. Same play, make it roughting the passer and the pass is incomplete... penalties offset, clock starts on the snap.

[MJT]

Originally posted by Theisey
NF: we've covered this territory before very early in the year either here or those other forums.

See case book play 3.4.3 Sit-A (a)
Yes, there are no fouls in that play, but the words are the clocked was stopped because of the fair catch.
That alone was the action the really caused the down to end and it stopped the clock.

Same play but what if the scrimmage kick went OOB? Clocked was stopped for that. Penalties offset, clock starts on the Snap. Same play, make it roughting the passer and the pass is incomplete... penalties offset, clock starts on the snap.

I see your point as well about 3.4.3a, but what about a month or so ago when there was an interception, and a foul so the play was replayed. It was hashed out by us on this or McGriffs board and almost all said the COP did not stop the clock, cuz it did not stand after the penalty, so start on the RFP. How is this different? Yes, the FC did originally stop the clock, but cuz of the fouls, this seems like the interception play.

[James Neil]

Originally posted by MJT
[/B]

I see your point as well about 3.4.3a, but what about a month or so ago when there was an interception, and a foul so the play was replayed. It was hashed out by us on this or McGriffs board and almost all said the COP did not stop the clock, cuz it did not stand after the penalty, so start on the RFP. How is this different? Yes, the FC did originally stop the clock, but cuz of the fouls, this seems like the interception play. [/B][/QUOTE] I don't know if this will help you understand, but I look at it this way. COPS don’t stop the clock. The fouls nor the assessment of them in this play didn’t stop the clock The fair catch stopped the clock. NF 3-4-2 lists reasons for starting on the ready. And way down at 3-4-2b3 it says to start on the ready if.” The action, which caused the down to end, did not also cause the clock to be stopped.” Well the particular action that caused this down to end did cause the clock to be stopped. Just like if the team had scored or tossed an incomplete pass or the play ended OOB but then ended up having to replay the down. We’d start on the snap because that was the action that stopped the clock.

[MJT]

Originally posted by James Neil

I see your point as well about 3.4.3a, but what about a month or so ago when there was an interception, and a foul so the play was replayed. It was hashed out by us on this or McGriffs board and almost all said the COP did not stop the clock, cuz it did not stand after the penalty, so start on the RFP. How is this different? Yes, the FC did originally stop the clock, but cuz of the fouls, this seems like the interception play. [/B]

I don't know if this will help you understand, but I look at it this way. COPS don’t stop the clock. The fouls nor the assessment of them in this play didn’t stop the clock The fair catch stopped the clock. NF 3-4-2 lists reasons for starting on the ready. And way down at 3-4-2b3 it says to start on the ready if.” The action, which caused the down to end, did not also cause the clock to be stopped.” Well the particular action that caused this down to end did cause the clock to be stopped. Just like if the team had scored or tossed an incomplete pass or the play ended OOB but then ended up having to replay the down. We’d start on the snap because that was the action that stopped the clock.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I just re-read 3-4-4 again (the clock shall be stopped when) and it does not say to stop the clock on COP. If that is the case, why do we stop the clock if B recovers a fumble, or intercepts a pass. We do it all the time. If B intercepts, and stays IB's we still stop the clock. I don't have time right now to look and find it in the book, but it must be there. We all know it is an appropriate time to stop the clock, but where is it?

[Theisey]

We stopped the clock to award B a new series, such as when they recover a fumble or intercept a pass AND retain the ball.
C.o.P has nothing to do with it. Common example is B intercepts (C.o.P#1), B fumbles and A recovers (C.o.P#2). Clock starts on the ready despite the fact that there were two C.o.Ps on the play.

[James Neil]

Originally posted by MJT

I just re-read 3-4-4 again (the clock shall be stopped when) and it does not say to stop the clock on COP. If that is the case, why do we stop the clock if B recovers a fumble, or intercepts a pass. We do it all the time. If B intercepts, and stays IB's we still stop the clock. I don't have time right now to look and find it in the book, but it must be there. We all know it is an appropriate time to stop the clock, but where is it? [/B]

We stop the clock for an officials time out following a change of team possession.. 3-5-7c. If there’s no foul and we award B a 1st down, then we start it on the snap. If there is a foul and A retains the ball , then we look at what action caused that down to end to know when to start the clock.

[MJT]

I think I have this clear in my mind forever now. Thanks guys!

[Theisey]

MJT and others,
There was a four page article published in the NFHS Officials Quarterly, summer 2003. It was written by Jay Cornils entitled "Major and Minor Clock-Stoppers: managing the clock the NFHS way".
If you can get a hold of a reprint, it is well worth reading. I don't think I am allowed to scan and send a copy.

Another very good source for clock management as well as a ton of other good stuff, is "The Officials study guide to NFHS Football" written by Demetriou and Redding. I'd recommend buying a copy even though the season is over.

This stuff will make a any official even better.

[MJT]

Originally posted by Theisey
MJT and others,
There was a four page article published in the NFHS Officials Quarterly, summer 2003. It was written by Jay Cornils entitled "Major and Minor Clock-Stoppers: managing the clock the NFHS way".
If you can get a hold of a reprint, it is well worth reading. I don't think I am allowed to scan and send a copy.

Another very good source for clock management as well as a ton of other good stuff, is "The Officials study guide to NFHS Football" written by Demetriou and Redding. I'd recommend buying a copy even though the season is over.

This stuff will make a any official even better.

I remember the article and it is very good. I am going to find it and read it again.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by Green
Third down ends with the clock running. On fourth down, K punts, ball is fair caught beyond the line. During the down, K is flagged for motion, R is flagged for roughing the kicker. Penalties off-set, replay the down. Question: Does the clock start on the ready or snap. Please give section in the rule book.

[Edited by Green on Nov 20th, 2004 at 12:04 PM]

Outside the 3MW: on the ready.

Inside the 3MW: on the snap.