Texas vs Kansas - Swim Move

[mcrowder]

Anyone hear Kansas Coach Mangione's comments after the game regarding the OPI called on his team with 2 minutes to go? He kept saying that his player executed a swim move, which is taught by every offensive coordinator in the league, and the call was motivated by the BCS (ie - he was saying the officials made a conscious decision to cheat him).

Seems to me the "swim move" is a legitimate way for a receiver to get by his receiver at the line of scrimmage, but once the ball is in the air, that is simply pass interference - you can't create space with your arms with the ball in the air.

Other than the obvious thoughts that Mangione needs to step away from the buffet... what are your thoughts on this?

[ABoselli]

Coach, mix in a piece of fruit here and there. No need to put mayonnaise on your Advil, either.

If by swim move, he means pull with one arm and 'swim' the other other the defender (like D lineman do), I'm not sure that's legal by an offensive reciever. He can use his arms and hands to block or fend off a defender, but grasping and pulling the defender out of his way doesn't seem legal. I don't have my NCAA book here - I'll have to check later.

[Warrenkicker]

I am not a KU fan. In fact I am a former K-State football player so at best I am anti-KU. That being said, this was a pretty touchy call. It had all the looks of advantage gained but it may have just looked that way.

The receiver ran straight at the defender while running an out and both pushed at each other. The receiver then turned out and caught the ball. The contact was slight but it was obvious that there was some contact and the official saw it clearly. It is easy to see that the official saw the contact which looked to be initiated by the receiver and that separation happened immediately after the contact.

Coach Mangino has looked like that ever since I knew him. He coached at K-State before Oklahoma before KU. That was 13 years ago. While that may not be the best shape for a coach, he doesn't play the game. When he got the job at KU he was asked about his weight by an also very overweight newspaper writer from Kansas City and whether it would affect his coaching. Mangino replied, "Does your weight keep you from writing you columns?" Big laughs for that one.

[Edited by Warrenkicker on Nov 15th, 2004 at 01:39 PM]

[mcrowder]

I'm assuming that Coach M had a better look than we did, and I'm taking his word for it that the receiver used a swim move to create space. I guess my point is that even if he's exactly right, this is illegal.

[Bob M.]

REPLY: My thoughts are that the offensive receiver, knowing that the play is a pass, is required to avoid contact with the defender. Just because the defender contacts him doesn't give him license to push back or initiate any kind of retaliatory contact that frees him up or creates any kind of separation. If the receiver ran at the d-back and extended his hands/arms to ward off the d-back, I think an OPI call is a distinct possibility.

[ABoselli]

Upo looking things up, yes, he does have to avoid contact with the defender. Why would the coach describe this as a swim move? Doesn't sound like one to me.

As for the weight, if he drops dead from a heart attack, stroke, heart disease or diabetes, we won't need CSI to figure out the cause.

[jfurdell]

The really unfortunate part was how the coach implied that BCS money had something to do with the official's call. News reports are saying he'll be fined $10,000 for that.

[Warrenkicker]

Originally posted by mcrowder
I'm assuming that Coach M had a better look than we did, and I'm taking his word for it that the receiver used a swim move to create space. I guess my point is that even if he's exactly right, this is illegal.

Well this is just more for the conspiracy theorists. This play happened in front of the Texas bench between the hash and the numbers.

Every conference has different standards for how they want things called and the Big XII has been consistantly strict on contact while the ball is in the air.

[Bobby Castle]

1. NCAA rules are clear that it is the receiver's responsibility to avoid contact with a defender.
2. It is illegal for any offensive player to make contact with a defender more than a yard beyond the line of scrimmage or more than three yards if contact was established not more than a yard downfield.
3. It is legal for a defensive player to contact a receiver who has crossed the line of scrimmage if a catchable pass to that receiver has not been thrown.

This receiver ran several yards downfield, put both hands in the defender's chest, pushed him backwards while cutting to his left causing a seperation of about 5 yards which gave him room to catch the pass. His action didn't come close to a swim move.

What would have been the reaction of the University of Texas or the Big XII if this call HAD NOT been made? Texas could have easily been robbed of a BCS berth by an obvious OPI not called. Who would have been crying conspiricy then?

[JRutledge]

There was not swim move on the play, it was a push off. The receiver clearly pushed or blocked the defender to get himself open. In 7 man mechanics, someone clearly has that receiver and can see the entire play. This was not a swim move at all. The defender was knocked off stride and took a couple of steps to recover. That was a great call by the official and needs to be called more often. It is on thing to have slight contact, but he clearly gained an advantage by pushing off to get open. Maybe if he would teach some other techniques, the coach would have a better team every year.

How about this is novel idea. Stop TEXAS on the last drive and you win the game. You think that might have something to do with the lost?


Peace

[kdf5]

It seemed to me that KU stopped Texas' forward progress inbounds a couple of times, then shoving the Texas player out of bounds stopping the clock, incorrectly, I thought. I can remember thinking twice that Texas got huge breaks because of that.

[shocker]

I agree with some points but not others. Someone said that OPI for that play should be called more often. I agree that OPI needs to be called more. The defender is always at a disadvantage because the receiver knows where he is going, yet the defender is always called for contact even when the receiver contacted him as well. You see it all the time.

I have watched the play several times and to me it looked like the defender initiated contact as well. I think that at the point of the game it should not have been called. Why let OPI go all the time and then late in a tight game you call it? You have to be consistent and that call is not consistent. I think it would have been a good no call. Just my opinion !! I am from Kansas but I bleed black and gold (Wichita State).

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by shocker
I have watched the play several times and to me it looked like the defender initiated contact as well.

I really do not know how you came to that conclusion. I realize it is hard to see the tape on this forum and make a determination from our words alone. But the defender was backpedaling the entire play. The receiver went and met the defender and when contact occurred, the defender was knocked off balance, then the receiver made a cut and was wide open. The Kansas receiver had his arms extended in the chest of the defender and gained a huge advantage from that.

Originally posted by shocker
I think that at the point of the game it should not have been called. Why let OPI go all the time and then late in a tight game you call it?

What does the point of the game have to do with the call? If you do not want to be called for something, do not cause an infraction. I did not see the game, but maybe there was another call during the game that preceded that call? What point of the game should have no influence in the call? If that was OPI in the first few minutes of the first quarter, it should be the same call in the last minute of the fourth quarter.

Originally posted by shocker
You have to be consistent and that call is not consistent. I think it would have been a good no call. Just my opinion !! I am from Kansas but I bleed black and gold (Wichita State).

What school you cheer for is not relevant to me. I believe that the call was a good one and should be called ever time. The time of the game should have little or no influence on a call. The only thing that should be considered is can the action be seen on tape. It was seen on tape and was a very good call. The contact was not heavy, but it does not take much contact to spring a receiver wide open.

Peace