End of Game, Nose Swats at Snap

[James Neil]

Gentlemen, please lets move on. Arguing with the Anti Ref is a waste of time. The Anti-Ref just likes to prattle on with his BS and really doesn't have a clue. I for one don't believe he's ever been an official. For some sick reason he likes to bounce around on the board giving his anti rulings that really don't make any sense at all

[Derock2004]

Originally posted by James Neil
Gentlemen, please lets move on. Arguing with the Anti Ref is a waste of time. The Anti-Ref just likes to prattle on with his BS and really doesn't have a clue. I for one don't believe he's ever been an official. For some sick reason he likes to bounce around on the board giving his anti rulings that really don't make any sense at all

Mr Neil, the only time you seem to show up in any of my posts is to try and discredit me as an official. I think I have made a well articulated argument which even included NFHS rules and definitions to support my interpretation of the legality of the Defense swatting at the snapping of the ball.

[AndrewMcCarthy]

Originally posted by Warrenkicker
We had a player at a varsity game earlier this season come over and ask us about swatting the ball out of the snapper's hands on a long snap. This long snapper would load-up on his snap and thus really wasn't a legal snap as he would pick the ball up slightly and move it forward a little before his backward motion. We said that nothing stopped him from trying as long as he didn't encroach.

They never tried to slap the ball so we didn't have to rule on if we should have had a dead-ball foul or just a loose ball. So I would say that when a player is able to knock the ball out of the snapper's hands that it is a legal play by the defense but can be an illegal snap if it didn't meet all of those requirements.

We had the exact same thing happen to us last week except it was the coach who asked us in the pregame. Our R said he didn't see how it would be illegal. The snapper "loaded up" on the first long snap of the game and the nose slapped at it- the ball rolled back to the punter and he was ambushed.

The K coach wasn't too happy about it but subsequent snaps were much quicker.

[cowbyfan1]

Originally posted by Derock2004

The key word in what you said is "he drops it"! There is a distinct difference from releasing the ball and having it swatted or swiped from your hand(s). No way is this a legal play. You still didn't answer my question, say the Nose is swift and has a lot of precision and actually swipes the ball from the center hands. Is it a live ball or dead ball and what is the call or non call? Please explain.

Whether he drops it voluntarily or not the ball is released by the center. Thus the snap is over, reguardless if it touches a QB or not. One of the definitions of release is "An unfastening or letting go of something caught or held fast." It says nothing about voluntary or not.
You also quoted from the rule book the ball becomes live as soon as the center moves it other than to adjust the ball. So what difference does it make if the immediate release comes about from handing it to the QB, dropping it or if the defense knocks it out of his hands? Per the definition of release above the ball was released thus a legal snap. If he moves it back and then moves it back forward then it is not a legal snap, thus dead ball because there was no release of the ball in any way shape or form. Thus the dead ball foul.
Let me make it simple. You need ball movement by the center and a release. Center moves the ball, ball is hit by nose guard, ball is RELEASED by center. Live ball, no foul, legal snap.
Besides what are fouls? Something done by a team to gain an "unfair" advantage over the other team. The way you are arguing that this is not a leagal snap, are you really gonna flag the offense 5 yards because of something the defense did? If you do, let me know when so I can go to your game and laugh my *** off at you getting ripped by the coach.
As far as the call, live ball no whistle, throw a bean bag (because unlike a muffed snap by the QB,this is a true fumble)and then when recovered and downed, blow your whistle and signal which way we are going depending on who recovered it.


[Edited by cowbyfan1 on Oct 29th, 2004 at 02:01 AM]

[jjrye22]

Originally posted by Derock2004

Snap rule - Section 38, Art. 2. The snap begins when the snapper first moves the ball legally other than in adjustment. In a snap, the movement must be a quick and continuous backward motion of the ball during which the ball immediately leaves the hand(s) of the snapper and touches a back or the ground before it touches an A lineman.

Hi Derock,

1st, I don't see why you are getting so stuck on the phrase 'release' the ball - your rule quote clearly stated 'leaves the hand(s) of the snapper'.
If the snapper's hand was hit and the ball leaves it... It still qualifies according to what you wrote.

Secondly, back to my question earlier that no one seems to have answered.
What if the defender pushed the snapper while snapping, and doesn't contact the ball? My example (a well timed blitz) is quite likely, and a good hit on the snapper might make him mess up the snap. So long as there was no encroachment - I think you would agree there is no problem.
Why whould it be different if the DL makes contact with the ball instead of the snapper himself?


That said, I only officiate NCAA where it is a clear dead ball foul.
2-23-f If the ball is touched by Team B during a legal snap, the ball remains dead and Team B is penalized. If the ball is touched by Team B during an illegal snap, the ball remains dead and Team A is penalized (A.R. 7- 1-5-I-II).

James

[Derock2004]

Originally posted by cowbyfan1

Whether he drops it voluntarily or not the ball is released by the center. Thus the snap is over, reguardless if it touches a QB or not. One of the definitions of release is "An unfastening or letting go of something caught or held fast." It says nothing about voluntary or not.
You also quoted from the rule book the ball becomes live as soon as the center moves it other than to adjust the ball. So what difference does it make if the immediate release comes about from handing it to the QB, dropping it or if the defense knocks it out of his hands? Per the definition of release above the ball was released thus a legal snap. If he moves it back and then moves it back forward then it is not a legal snap, thus dead ball because there was no release of the ball in any way shape or form. Thus the dead ball foul.
Let me make it simple. You need ball movement by the center and a release. Center moves the ball, ball is hit by nose guard, ball is RELEASED by center. Live ball, no foul, legal snap.
Besides what are fouls? Something done by a team to gain an "unfair" advantage over the other team. The way you are arguing that this is not a leagal snap, are you really gonna flag the offense 5 yards because of something the defense did? If you do, let me know when so I can go to your game and laugh my *** off at you getting ripped by the coach.
As far as the call, live ball no whistle, throw a bean bag (because unlike a muffed snap by the QB,this is a true fumble)and then when recovered and downed, blow your whistle and signal which way we are going depending on who recovered it.


[Edited by cowbyfan1 on Oct 29th, 2004 at 02:01 AM]

Swatting the ball from the snapper hand(s) is a defensive penalty--Encroachment or Delay of Game.

You said you would rule it a fumble. You can't rule it a fumble because player possession was never established. Well if you say its a Muff, then it can't be a Muff because the ball must already be loose in an attempt to secure possession.

SUMMARY:
This will all come down to clarification on if swatting the ball from the snapper hand is the same as releasing it. I am one who believes their is a distinct difference between the two. Furthermore I believe the snapper should be given the opportunity to freely execute a legal snap. In order to be a legal snap, it must conform to all articles of the definition of a snap.

[mikesears]

Originally posted by Derock2004
Wow! Am I the only one who interprets the rules I mentioned as it being illegal for the defense to swat the ball from the center's hands after he moves it?

Out of curiousity, what call do you make if this occurs in a game??

Under NFHS rules, this is legal. Under NCAA rules this is specifically prohibited.

If this occurs during a high school game (NF rules), I've got a live loose ball. Derock, if this concerns you, may I suggest you send your concern to the NFHS for a rule change?

[mikesears]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jaysef
We had a Varsity team inform us of a gadget play where the center maintains possession after snapping to the QBs hands,

Did the center release the ball? If not, this is a snap infraction.

Originally posted by Jaysef
placing it back on the turf and running with the ball.

If the center immediately releases the ball by simply put the ball on the ground, then this is a play that team A MUST notify the referee they are going to run before the play in which they run it. (Planned loose ball play in the vicinity of the snapper).

Originally posted by Jaysef
I told Coach to be sure R is informed when they were going to use this, and they did about 3 times.

Good call.

Originally posted by Jaysef
Was I in error letting this happen? Reading the previous threads, do I understand the ball to be live when the snap is complete (possesed by another A player, or on the ground?)

If the center snaps the ball to the QB's hands (simply striking the QB's hands) and THEN puts the ball on the ground, this is a snap infraction for two reasons. It wasn't released immediately and the snap had a downward movement. If the QB puts the ball on the ground, the play is legal provided the following:

1. R must be notified before the down in which they run the play.

2. QB must place the ball on the ground. He can't hand it forward to the snapper.

[Derock2004]

Whats the call in this play:
Punt formation, snapper snaps the ball which floats high into the air in punt-like fashion. B1 runs underneath it and catches it, in stride and races untouched into the end zone. The ball never touches the ground or an A player. What is the call and is there any similarity to B1 touching the ball before the snapper releases it?

[mikesears]

Originally posted by Derock2004
Swatting the ball from the snapper hand(s) is a defensive penalty--Encroachment or Delay of Game.

You said you would rule it a fumble. You can't rule it a fumble because player possession was never established. Well if you say its a Muff, then it can't be a Muff because the ball must already be loose in an attempt to secure possession.

SUMMARY:
This will all come down to clarification on if swatting the ball from the snapper hand is the same as releasing it. I am one who believes their is a distinct difference between the two. Furthermore I believe the snapper should be given the opportunity to freely execute a legal snap. In order to be a legal snap, it must conform to all articles of the definition of a snap.

A key definition you have missed:

RULE 2-35. Definition of a RULE:
A rule is one of the groups of regulations which govern the game. A rule sometimes states what a player may do, but if there is no such statement for a given act (such as faking a kick), it is assumed that he may do what is not prohibited.

The rulebook wording does not prohibit a defensive player from swiping at the snap.

In like manner, a rule sometimes states or implies that the ball is dead or that a foul is involved. If it does not, it is assumed that the ball is live and that no foul has occurred. If a foul is mentioned, it is assumed that it is not part of a double or multiple foul unless so stated or implied.

In other words, a rule does NOT exist that prevents a defender from swiping at the snap.

Let's look further:

Rule 2-8 ENCROACHMENT:
Encroachment occurs when a player is illegally in the neutral zone during the time interval starting when the ball is ready for play and until the ball is snapped.

This rule does not differentiate between when B may enter the neutral zone and when B may touch the snap.

Rule 2-2: BATTING:
Batting is intentionally slapping or striking the ball with the arm or hand.

What we are talking about here is batting the snap and that is the reason I included this defintion. No where is rule 9-7 does it mention batting the snap as illegal.

Rule 2-1-2:
A live ball is a ball in play. A ball becomes live when the ball has been legally snapped or free kicked and a down is in progress.

When is the ball live. Either the ball is live when the snap is COMPLETED or the ball is live when the snap is started. Which one is it? By common practice, the ball is live the moment the snap is started. The only actions that can cause a snap to illegal are actions by the snapper. Team B can't do anything to invalidate a snap.[/b]


Let's look at the defintion of a snap:

Rule 2-38-2:

The snap begins when the snapper first moves the ball legally other than in adjustment. In a snap, the movement must be a quick and continuous backward motion of the ball during which the ball immediately leaves the hand(s) of the snapper and touches a back or the ground before it touches an A lineman.

If the defense touches the ball during the snap and it comes loose, does the ball immediately leave the hand(s) of the snapper?


Bottom line. NOTHING in the rules prevents B from batting at the snap.

[JamesBond]

Originally posted by Derock2004
Whats the call in this play:
Punt formation, snapper snaps the ball which floats high into the air in punt-like fashion. B1 runs underneath it and catches it, in stride and races untouched into the end zone. The ball never touches the ground or an A player. What is the call and is there any similarity to B1 touching the ball before the snapper releases it?

I am assuming you never played or saw a game of football. The situation you describe above is called a TOUCHDOWN for B. The second scenario is a fumble. Both are legal in NFHS.

[Jaysef]

Not trying to muddy the discussion, but, you could also use the "quick and continuous, backward motion" requirement stated in the rule to support the fact that something with a noseguard batting a snap is wrong...if B slaps the ball is it moving backward continuously? Therefore is it a legal snap?

My point being, we are getting into some interpretation minutia that could go on forever. I don't have the answer, I just see both sides...my call would still be "no call" for my 2 cents.

Seef

[mcrowder]

Yes, it's moving back continuously until the defense hits it. Still a legal snap, and still a legal play by the defense.

DeR's only hangup seems to be the word RELEASE. Please, DeR, note specifically that none of the rules require this release to be voluntary. Involuntary release (whether simply by dropping the ball or having it swatted out of his hands) is still a release.

And I'll repeat what I've said 3 times, because it doesn't seem to be sinking in. In the books and other publications listing the differences between FED and NCAA, the swatting of the ball by the defense is specifically mentioned as a legal play in FED.

[Derock2004]

Originally posted by JamesBond

I am assuming you never played or saw a game of football. The situation you describe above is called a TOUCHDOWN for B. The second scenario is a fumble. Both are legal in NFHS.

But how can it be a touchdown if the ball never touches the ground or an A player? Isn't that the definition of a legal snap? And is it not a rule that a "legal snap" will cause the ball to become live???

Man I am confused!

[JamesBond]

Originally posted by Derock2004

But how can it be a touchdown if the ball never touches the ground or an A player? Isn't that the definition of a legal snap? And is it not a rule that a "legal snap" will cause the ball to become live???

Man I am confused!

You are looking into it way too deeply. Take a step back and breath a little. The game is football. The object is to get the little brown oblique spheriod into the endzone. A snap a is continuous movement of the ball and a release. IT DOESN'T MATTER IN NFHS IF THE 'RELEASE' OCCURS VOLUNTARILY OR INVOLUNTARILY. Read some of the other posts dude. Its not that tough to interpret. Its legal and there is no interpretation that is going to justify it as illegal.