Flag Spot, and FP questions

[jjrye22]

2 questions fro a tournament I worked last weekend.

1. LJ on kickoff. For the first time ever I had a K player run out of bounds then back in a few steps later (no contact from a R player). I knew it was a foul, but had no idea how I should throw it... I am on the goal line, he came back in somewhere around the 50. Is it ok to just flag it? Shouldn't it be specific to the spot that he came in?
As it was, I froze up and didn't flag it (confusion, disbelief). The kick ended up out of bounds on the other side as well - but I would like to know how to deal with this correctly next time.


2. (Also as LJ). RB runs in the middle of the field. Gets tackled, and the tackler throws himself backwards and twists... Kind of hard to describe, but the runner landed on his back ON the tackler. As they hit the ground, the tackler lets go, and the runner bounces sideways onto his feet again - starts running again after regaining his orientation.
The U blows the play dead, and from my view it seems like an IW. I tell him, and he says no - forward progress was stopped. I think he was just covering himself (we are all from different states at a youth tournament and didn't know each other), but wanted to see what you all say. I know it is a 'had to see it' play, but maybe you can give me some input as to wheather the player is down if he doesn't touch the ground and kept moving?

Thanks for the info,

James

[SouthGARef]

On #1, I believe you have to throw the flag at the spot where he re-enters. This is enforced using the ABO principle if I'm not mistaken.

On #2, without seeing the play--I kinda like the "forward progress" ruling. Maybe it's not strictly "by the rules", but I think its best--especially in a kids game.

[Jim S]

The first is ideed a spot foul. But does the spot mean anything in this case? No, because it is on the 'defense'.
You either have a loose ball foul during the kick or a defensive foul during a running play that will be added on to the end of the run.
Don't need to worry about the exact spot here

The second answer is in two parts. First, you tell the umpire to shove the whistle....... lose the whistle. The rest of the answer is that we would probably have to see the play. The umpire was most likely right, even if his mechanics weren't.

[SouthGARef]

I don't know about that Jim.

The IP is a spot foul, but if it occurs during the kick it would be a loose ball foul. PSK would not be used since it is a foul on K. Rs choice would be to back up K 15 and replay 4th down, or to decline and take the ball.

If K re-entered after R possession of the ball however, you would be correct.

[RazorRef]

Once you see a player go out of bounds, you should immediatly throw your hat or bean bag to the spot out of bounds. Like it was said, the spot in this case doesn't matter since it was a loose ball foul. Once you see the player come back in bounds without having been blocked out of bounds, you should throw a flag for IP and R would have the choice of accepting the IP and having K backup 15 and rekick or decline the IP and go with the illegal precedure penalty from the kick going out of bounds. The kid is going to be thoroughly confused with all those options Not to nit pick, but there would be no PSK regardless since this was a free kick.

[SouthGARef]

Ah yes. Was thinking it was a punt... excuse my ignorance.

[Snake~eyes]

Throwing the hat is just for NCAA, not an NFHS mechanic.

[SouthGARef]

Originally posted by Snake~eyes
Throwing the hat is just for NCAA, not an NFHS mechanic.

So is the "catch cradle", the "push out" signal, the "catch OOB signal", and a host of others. That doesn't stop those from being used... unfortunately.

[Rich]

Originally posted by SouthGARef

So is the "catch cradle", the "push out" signal, the "catch OOB signal", and a host of others. That doesn't stop those from being used... unfortunately.

Yeah, I mean, why use a universally known signal in order to add information?

[jjrye22]

Originally posted by RazorRef
Once you see a player go out of bounds, you should immediatly throw your hat or bean bag to the spot out of bounds. Like it was said, the spot in this case doesn't matter since it was a loose ball foul. Once you see the player come back in bounds without having been blocked out of bounds, you should throw a flag for IP and R would have the choice of accepting the IP and having K backup 15 and rekick or decline the IP and go with the illegal precedure penalty from the kick going out of bounds. The kid is going to be thoroughly confused with all those options Not to nit pick, but there would be no PSK regardless since this was a free kick.

This is exactly my question... As LJ on the goal line of R, how the heck am I supposed to mark is OOB and re-entry spots?

If it happens again I guess I'll just flag it where I am, and go from there. As you have pointed out - not a spot foul so it doesn't really matter. Just a little frustrating to have this guideline and not be able to implement it.

James

[Edited by jjrye22 on Oct 20th, 2004 at 06:23 AM]

[MI Official]

first just wondering why, as a LJ you are on the GL of R and not on the R restraining line? (Kickoff right??)
Isn't IP a previous spot foul, loose ball play or otherwise?? correct me if I am wrong.

second, in the youth game, probably a god call, but I would still tell my U not to blow the whistle.

[BulldogMcC]

Originally posted by MI Official
second, in the youth game, probably a god call, but I would still tell my U not to blow the whistle.

I dunno, I would have to see it. From a mostly U's perspective, I have to be 100% sure of two things to blow the whistle. That the ball is dead and that the wings couldn't see what I saw. If I was sure the ball was dead, and then saw the runner begin to run again and no whistles by the wings, this is when I whistle. If I whistle as he lands, bad U, first round on me, but from the way the OP described it, the runner had begun to run again and the wings were not blowing their whistle. If he saw the ball dead, he has to blow it or else it gets uglier when the U tries to tell the R, "I had it dead back here, but as the U you told me to shove my whistle, er lose my whistle so I just waited till you all killed the play to tell you the spot is way back there."

[The Roamin' Umpire]

Originally posted by MI Official
first just wondering why, as a LJ you are on the GL of R and not on the R restraining line? (Kickoff right??)

Sounds like seven-man - and possibly six-man - mechanics (at least as practiced by the officials at the local D-IAA college). HL and LJ are back with R at the receivers' goal line.

[jjrye22]

Originally posted by The Roamin' Umpire

Sounds like seven-man - and possibly six-man - mechanics (at least as practiced by the officials at the local D-IAA college). HL and LJ are back with R at the receivers' goal line.

Sorry, yes - 7 man mechanics. It was the equivalant of a multi-state tournament, with 15 teams, and refs from 10 different states. We had enough people to have 7 man crews for each of the games.


I am more interested as to what I should have done with the other play...
My problem is not really that the U blow the play dead - He felt I am sure that he was protecting the players. I'm more interested in the player being stopped without having touched the ground with anything but his feet. I have seen a few videos from rulebooks.com where the runner rolls over the pile and is not considered down. The rulebooks says the play is dead 'when a runner is so held that his forward progress is stopped' or 'When any part of the runner s body, except his hand or foot, touches the ground'

What I essentially saw was the runner fall forward, onto another player, bounce off and continue running. If the other player had not been there the runner would have fell to the ground and the play would have been dead, but since he didn't contact the ground, should I have called it dead?

I guess it would be the same with a pile up on short yardage. The ball carrier makes a jump and lands on the pile. Is it dead when he lands? Is he allowed to continue crawling forward over the pile?

Thanks,

James

[RazorRef]

You're right, the runner is not down if nothing but his feet or hands touch the ground, so if he falls on someone and bounces up, the play is still live (unless IW ). Anyhow, the way to think about landing on a pile is the same as if the runner was being stood up by a/many tackler(s). The play is dead when his forward progress has stopped. You blow the whistle to prevent the runner from getting injured with further play.