Rules on hitter center?

[mcrowder]

Dirk, we're not going to care what you think if you continue to insist that it's ok (and proper) for officials to let certain fouls go in PeeWee (the ones against your team), but we should rule to the letter of the law in others (the ones for your team). And we're going to care even less when you make up penalties. Go read the definition of clipping please. And 8 year old being tripped and falling on another 8 year old is not clipping, regardless of whether one was about to make a play or not.

[Dirk]

What are these fouls that I think are ok to not be called on us? We got a flag for delay of game. What I said if that flag was going to be thrown, then the flags against the other team needs to be thrown. What I what is an even interpretation of the rules. Call everything is fine, just do it on both sides of the ball. What happened is fouls on the northside of the field went 4 to 1 against us. It is where we got a few ghost calls, can't find it on the tapes and the officials when asked who it was on, just shrugged and said they did know. When you see they can't keep track of the downs, and don't know the penalty markoffs, I am guilty of looking deeper at other calls. You all agree that some of my complaints are not warranted, but if it were just a ghost call or a non call, it would not be a big deal, but it was the sum total. You can pick every call and non-call apart individually, but not the point at all.

On Clipping rule 2-5, 1 says "clipping is a block against an opponent when initial contact is from behind, at or below waist, and not against a player who is a runner or pretending to be a runner." Hmm tackled from behind at about knee level...seems to match the discription. It doesn't say not a foul if the kids trips into the back. But Art. 3 does say it is not clipping unless the official doesn't see initial contact. So, I guess you have your out. Congrats

The losing team has also lodged complaints now. The league had an observer at the game as part of a coaches review, and they concurred with the complaints, so maybe something will happen to prevent this crew from returning. The league reports to the officials union on these type of things, and there is some sort of discipline at the union level. So, maybe they will have more than just a slap on the wrist for screwing up a youth game, I can only hope.

[mikesears]

Dirk,

Bob M. pointed out that the officials you are communicating with here pretty much actually care about calling a fair and consistent game and we take pride in doing a good job. We won't comment on the performance of another official because we aren't witnesses to the game. More often than not, we've found that those who come here to complain are wrong or haven't given us the information we need or misinform us of the events that occured. This isn't the first complaint lodged against the "unknown officials".

Some more ideas that come to mind:

In your game, the officials might have told your players that the other team was taking a knee and penalized your team for the hit. Telling the defense that the other team might take a knee is a common practice to prevent rough play.

Also, at the 8/9 year old level, getting a play called and the proper players in is often messy at best. When I officiate, I won't have a delay of game foul because I am not whistling the ready-for-play until both teams have the proper players in the huddle. If players are leaving the game at the snap and it doesn't create an advantage to the opponents (nobody covers them), then I won't flag it. If coaches come onto the field to call a play and stay near the sidelines, I've got no problem with it as long as a coach isn't in my ear about my officiating.

Getting Pro rules mixed in with high school rules makes it sound like you had a full crew of rookie officials. In my first year, I OFTEN made this mistake. It also sounds like rookie officials because they were losing track of the downs and doing other things experienced officials don't do. If they are experienced and make these mistakes, then you are dealing with incompetence.

If you want to complain, chances are your league has some sort of board of directors or administration. Chances are they also also have someone who assigns the officials.

But I'd like to offer a suggestion. Make sure it really mattered in the grand scheme of life. Don't let your anger about it force you into something silly. Your players will always have to deal with people in positions of authority they might consider incompetent and learning how to deal with that might be a good lesson to learn at the young age of 8/9.

[mcrowder]

Good. Now go read the definition of block.

[Patton]

Originally posted by Dirk


The clipping was clipping, although not intential by the other team, a trip caused it, but still a foul because of the proximity to the ballcarrier.

Is it clipping when a ball carrier is being pursued by a tackler, and the tackler is brought down from behind by the ball carrier's team, with first contact about knee level?

Hmm tackled from behind at about knee level...

You've changed your description of this "clip" 3 times now. And we're supposed to believe your giving us an unbiased account of what happened at this game. If what you have told us about the officiating of this game is even 50% true, you have legitimate complaint. Take it to the head of the youth group with a video of the game. But don't come on here and tell us how we officials don't care. The officials on this board love what they do and are on here to better themselves. Regardless, you must realize at the 8-9 age group level, you are going to get officials that are new and still learning the rules. It's a fact (I guess it could happen), NFL & NCAA officials will not be working these games. I'm sure you were perfect as a coach from the start, but it takes us officials several games to reach your level. Stop crying and go coach your kids and please remember to teach them to have fun.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Dirk

There's the rub, you only do it because the money's good Jrut. Shame on you, take some pride in what you do.

you have to be one of the dumbest posters I have ever read on this site. When I officiate my varsity football game tomorrow, I will have to leave my house around 2:00 PM and not get home until if I am lucky before 12 Midnight. Instead of going out dealing with customers and making potentially thousands of dollars at my "real job,” I go sacrifice to make a messily 80 bucks. I will make $75 on Sunday (which I will not see any of the money until late October) for almost half the time in a Youth League and I would rather stay at home and be able to watch an NFL game on my only real day off. And this week alone I attended 3 meetings for associations that I belong and got paid nothing to attend. And you have the nerve to say, "This is for the money." I also have not mentioned the investment in dues for associations and uniform and gas cost that take to officiate. I live in one of the highest gas price areas in the country. The gas prices are now around my house is $2.09 the highest it has been in a long time and you have the nerve to question what the cost I consider for officiating. At least the game I will do tomorrow might help me get a playoff game and some day and State Final Game possibly in the future. Your youth game will do nothing but bring my headache and wish I was watching a real game on TV that I am interested in.

You know what, all this other BS that you are trying to tell us about what the officials should or should not do is all more crap. No one cares. I am sure the officials in your area do not care about your concerns. If you want good officials to work your game, stop acting like a tool when you think you know more than those that put hundreds of hours into an avocation or hobby. I never have to officiate anything if I do not want to. Sorry, what it will cost me is a factor for me. I know it is for other people. Your attitude makes it more difficult to lose money or enjoy personal time working a youth football game.

Peace

[Edited by JRutledge on Oct 7th, 2004 at 11:51 AM]

[Texoma_LJ]

I spent almost 14 years in a peewee league, in a variety of positions and responsibilities including calling games when we werent financially able to afford certified officials. Seems like those were the good old days.
This past year I decided to return to officiating not for the money, but for three things, the love of the game (gotta love the Friday night lights and the sound of pads cracking like thunder), I am always looking for something that is mentally stimulating (not to be confused with mind-numbing with some of the situations presented on here), and to find a hobby that allows me to contribute to the development of our children.
Dirk, I've read, and read and I keep asking myself... do the "ends" justify the "means"? What is it that you want in the end? Are the kids as bent out of shape about this as you seem to be? Seems like alot of effort for an 8-9 year old football league. The word "priorities" comes to mind, and obviously mine are alot different than yours. I cannot understand what it is that your kids are going to gain by all this.
I have learned alot on here lately, probably foremost, is that there are alot of folks on here that are EXTREMELY dedicated to "getting it right". When you come on here and place judgement on on of our own, it is not going to sit well with alot of people. To ask a question of an official is fine, but when you question an official as you have done is not going to sit well.
Why not do this... call all your parents, and have them go to the league officals until your happy. I am sure if it as improtant to them as it is to you... then they will be glad to help you in your cause.

[Dirk]

LOL

If you go back to the original post, it was about gaining a better understanding of the rules. Then read the answers or lack there of. Respect is a two way street, and it is not something one gains by position, it is earned.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Dirk
LOL

If you go back to the original post, it was about gaining a better understanding of the rules. Then read the answers or lack there of. Respect is a two way street, and it is not something one gains by position, it is earned.

You are exactly right, respect is earned. You are a youth football coach that does not take a rules test. You do not coach at a league that holds much accountability and you obviously do not know the rules or the way games are called by your post. You are right; you have earned no ones respect here by your attitude and your positions. I personally do not look for respect from youth coaches.

This is not your league; remember you are on an officiating forum.

Peace

[mcrowder]

And with 11 posts, all in this thread, and none elsewhere, you might want to settle back a bit before you talk about earning respect. JRut, while he has his haters, has at least on this site earned the respect of an official that knows the rules. I hope I've somewhat done the same.

You, you may be the best youth coach ever ... but you've not proven that here or earned respect here, and are not likely to do so by some of the commentary you've published in this thread.

[Bob Proctor]

Just a couple of thoughts to share. We always ask the quarterback if he is taking a knee, most officials pretty much know when this is appropriate. If the Q says he is taking a knee we tell the defense and tell them to stay off their blocks "IF" he takes a knee. If he says he isn't, we tell the defense nothing and the play goes like any other. In the very very rare occurance that the Q doesn't take a knee after telling the referee he will, we flag that as unsportsmanlike. If you say it to me it had better be the truth. That way we almost totally avoid any dangerous play ... and isn't safety our most important business?

[Bob M.]

Originally posted by Bob Proctor
Just a couple of thoughts to share. We always ask the quarterback if he is taking a knee, most officials pretty much know when this is appropriate. If the Q says he is taking a knee we tell the defense and tell them to stay off their blocks "IF" he takes a knee. If he says he isn't, we tell the defense nothing and the play goes like any other. In the very very rare occurance that the Q doesn't take a knee after telling the referee he will, we flag that as unsportsmanlike. If you say it to me it had better be the truth. That way we almost totally avoid any dangerous play ... and isn't safety our most important business?

REPLY: We have a slightly different approach. We all tighten up to the line of scrimmage. We tell both teams, "Play ball and protect yourselves!" As soon as the QB has shown control of the ball and goes down, we blow and jump in. Some questions about your technique:
1. How do you handle a situation where the defense has relaxed because of what you tell them and the QB muffs the snap? Can you defend what you've told the defense in such a case?
2. In the rare event that the QB 'fakes' going to a knee, runs for a TD, and you call it USC, how do you enforce since USC is by rule enforced from the succeeding spot?

[Snake~eyes]

Originally posted by Bob M.

REPLY: We have a slightly different approach. We all tighten up to the line of scrimmage. We tell both teams, "Play ball and protect yourselves!" As soon as the QB has shown control of the ball and goes down, we blow and jump in. Some questions about your technique:
1. How do you handle a situation where the defense has relaxed because of what you tell them and the QB muffs the snap? Can you defend what you've told the defense in such a case?
2. In the rare event that the QB 'fakes' going to a knee, runs for a TD, and you call it USC, how do you enforce since USC is by rule enforced from the succeeding spot?

Bob, this is the approach I like to take, tell the offense to protect themselves, telling the defense to take it easy can lead to problems.

I was thinking the same thing you cited in 2. of your response.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by Dirk
We got a penalty at the end of the game with 45 sec left, for hitting the center when the other team was trying to take a knee.

If the offense is taking a knee, why do you need to hit anybody?

The answer is you don't. Flag the offender.

[Bob Proctor]

I don't know how it works in a lot of other places, but in our association we use the youth football to begin the training process ... for officials as well as coaches. No one coaching or officiating knows very much about the rules, philosophy, etc. As long as you officiat you will have to face the fact that in youth football you are going to hear things that will make no sense at all from coaches AND fellow officials. Use those opportunities to teach when possible. As you move up the officiating food chain you will find that the quality of the coaching as well as the officials you work with improves dramatically.

You think you had it bad? We actually had a president of the Pop Warner conference in our area who figured we should #1 put the best officials in the assoc. on his games instead of on HS varsity games and #2 figured we should be the ones to go up into the stands and resolve fight between parents.

Some folks have paid their dues, some are beginning to pay theirs. Which one are you?