PSK & 12 men on defense

Foot-n-bats · #1 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 23, 2004, 09:53am

Sorry about another PSK question, but everyone's comments have been very helpfull. How do we handle it if "R" has 12 players...both in illegal participation situations (15 yrds) or illegal substitutions (5 yds)?

Theisey · #2 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 23, 2004, 10:02am

5 yards if you catch it prior to the snap for a substitution foul. If it's caught after the snap, it is an IP 15 yard foul and since this is a foul at the snap, it is previous spot enforcement, NOT PSK enforcement.

FBullock · #3 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 23, 2004, 10:10am

These fouls don't fall under PSK. These are previous spot enforcements.

Foot-n-bats · #4 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 23, 2004, 10:29am

Thanks! We handled the IP as a previous spot enforcement but it got our "wheels" turning somewhat when R's coach started yell for PSK. He lost the ball because of the 15 yards. We told him it was a previous spot enforcement but he wasn't happy.

Is it defined somewhere in the book that this is a previous spot and not PSK? We couldn't find it after the game and I haven't had a chance to check. Thanks again.

Ed Hickland · #5 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 23, 2004, 11:28am

Quote:

Originally posted by Foot-n-bats

Is it defined somewhere in the book that this is a previous spot and not PSK? We couldn't find it after the game and I haven't had a chance to check. Thanks again.

Maybe someone else can lead you to the correct post on this forum where Jerry Diehl was quoted on exactly that play.

Also, I queried the NY state interpreter who gave the same answer.

The trick is for it to be a PSK the foul must occur beyond the LOS.

North Pole Alaska Ref · #6 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 23, 2004, 11:36am

We do not have IP fouls, our policy is to get the 12 (through no signals by those responsible for counting) before the snap. If by chance the people counted wrong (11 are on the field) we pick up the flag.

simpson · #7 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 23, 2004, 11:44am

Remember, the whole point of PSK is to not take away possession from R for a foul that occurs after K has elected to give possession to R.

IP does not fall into that category. R's 12th player is committing a foul the entire time he is on the field. If he is on the field before PSK goes into effect, then it is not a PSK foul.

This does raise an interesting question: if a 12th R player comes onto the field during the return, is it PSK? I would think yes, but I'm curious to know what all of you think.

lorider · #8 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 23, 2004, 12:17pm

rules makers had a brain fart...psk starts AT THE SNAP this year..(if the ball crosses the neutral zone)... making this a psk foul....it SHOULD start at the kick then it wouldn't be a psk foul ... if i was the coach i would have gone ballistic too..if defense recognizes it as a defensive foul and they don't kick it -- they get a free play from previous spot .if they do kick it-- it becomes psk if kick crosses

Foot-n-bats · #9 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 23, 2004, 01:15pm

Ed Hickland was right...there was a thread that started on August 27 by BktBallRef titled "Is this a PSK foul?" and in that thread, Cowboyfan1 posted a response from Jerry Diehl that clearly explains it. Here it is:

Sent an email and I got a reply back..

R did not commit a PSK foul.

By rule (10-4-1a) the spot of the foul will be the previous spot. I would also reference you to Rule 2-16-2g.

If the penalty is accepted it would be first and ten for K at Rs 40-yard line.

Hope that helps.

Jerry L. Diehl
Assistant Director
National Federation of State High School Assn. (NFHS)
P.O. Box 690
Indianapolis, IN 46206
(O) 317-972-6900
(F) 317-822-5700
http://www.nfhs.org

So there it is folks.. Per the Fed it is not PSK thus administered from the previous spot.

[Edited by Foot-n-bats on Sep 23rd, 2004 at 03:58 PM]

jransom · #10 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 30, 2004, 11:23am

Quote:

Originally posted by lorider
rules makers had a brain fart...psk starts AT THE SNAP this year..(if the ball crosses the neutral zone)... making this a psk foul....it SHOULD start at the kick then it wouldn't be a psk foul ... if i was the coach i would have gone ballistic too..if defense recognizes it as a defensive foul and they don't kick it -- they get a free play from previous spot .if they do kick it-- it becomes psk if kick crosses

Absoultely not...the reason it was changed to start at the snap is for us mainly. The HL (watching the ball cross the NZ) isn't going to know whether a foul downfield occurred before or after the ball crossed & neither is the calling official. And, by rule, IP that occurred at the snap is a previous spot enforcement (see 10-4-2).
IP which occurs during the play (12th player runs on the field after the ball is snapped) is different.
Here's my take on a 12th R player entering during the down:
1. If he does not participate or hinder play, it is a non-player foul that is administered from the succeeding spot.
2. If he does participate, then it could be eligible for PSK if his foul is on R's side on the neutral zone and all of the other criteria is met.

Jonathan

PSU213 · #11 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 30, 2004, 11:40pm

Quote:

Originally posted by North Pole Alaska Ref
We do not have IP fouls, our policy is to get the 12 (through no signals by those responsible for counting) before the snap. If by chance the people counted wrong (11 are on the field) we pick up the flag.

We have the policy, and I think everyone else does (per Rule 3-7-2), but sometimes it gets missed (the 12th player comes on at the last second, etc.).