where do you mark the penalty?

TerpZebra · #1 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 22, 2004, 06:46pm

NFHS rules.

1st and 10 for Team A at their 20 yard line

A1 receives the snap and drops back to pass.

B1 holds A2 downfield at the 35 yard line.

A1 then runs the ball past the line of scrimmage to his own 25 yard line where he throws a backwards pass which is intercepted by B2 at the 23 and run back for a TD.

My thoughts: it is a running play because the backwards pass came after A1 crossed the line of scrimmage. B's TD will not count because they obtained the ball with dirty hands. The penalty should be enforced where the run ended (A's 25 yard line). A's ball, first and 10 at the 35 yard line. However, how do we know where the run ends? We do not bean bag a backward pass, etc. We have no reference to mark the penalty.

Your thoughts? And please include rule references, if available.

Texoma_LJ · #2 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 22, 2004, 06:53pm

Hopefully someone has bean bagged the spot of the turnover (23 yd. line) This should give a rather close proximity for addressing the actual spot of the end of the run.

Forksref · #3 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 22, 2004, 07:10pm

This is another example of why we need to bean bag things. If you were a yard or two off on the spot of the bean bag (23-25 yd line) you'd be ok since in either case the 10 yard penalty will give A a first down.

Always bean bag the end of a run that does not make the ball dead.

The Roamin' Umpire · #4 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 22, 2004, 08:36pm

Quote:

Originally posted by TerpZebra
... We do not bean bag a backward pass, etc.

Why not? You should. As your play illustrates, this is an important spot. Backward passes should be treated just like fumbles for bagging purposes - in fact, some crews use the bean bag as an indication that a pass is backward.

BoBo · #5 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 22, 2004, 08:48pm

I can only see bagging a backward pass if it is a fumble, which you should be doing any way and if it is intercepted by B.

Let me ask this how do you handle when B strips the ball away from A on A's run (change of possession). Would this be the spot indicating the end of the run for penalty enforcement if needed?

If you are saying bag change of possession do you bag interceptions of forward passes?

Theisey · #6 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 22, 2004, 09:35pm

Interceptions are not an enforcment spot for Team-B, therefore no bag is needed nor should be dropped.

Backward passes beyond the NZ or when there is no NZ can and do become an enforcement spot for fouls that might occurr prior to said bkwd pass. That's why it is bagged. It is the end of the run spot for that foul.

TerpZebra · #7 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 22, 2004, 10:03pm

what happens on a Cal vs. Stanford type play...

ie, you have 5 or 6 backwards passes? got enough bean bags for that?

/tongue-in-cheek (slightly)

BoBo · #8 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 23, 2004, 07:34am

So Theisey are you saying that we should be bagging the spot of every backward pass. Say an option play where the qb goes downfield and pitches back after gaining 10 yards to a trailing back. I know the ones that are dropped are bagged because they are fumbles.

I will be honest that I have never did that and nobody has told me that I should but you have gotten me to think twice about it now.

Anybody else's comments on this. Do you bag backward passes as well!?!?!?

jumpmaster · #9 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 23, 2004, 07:58am

This thread has got me thinking about it. I am curious as well. Anyone out there bag backwards passes?

Theisey · #10 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 23, 2004, 08:05am

Yes Bobo, that's what I'm saying.
I also must ammend my comment about a interception as a bag is necessary when "Momentum" in side the 5 yard line comes into play.

If that Cal-Stanford play were to occur again, there would be bags and hats all over the field. Possibly the mechanic was not in affect back when that play took place. After all, that as back in 1982.. and yes, there were five backward passes on that run.

cmathews · #11 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 23, 2004, 08:49am

Guys the reason for a beanbag is to mark the end of the run for penalty enforcement purposes, and for the momentum exceptions...backward passes are the end of a run, so yes I think they should be bagged...as far as option plays etc. technically no you don't need to bag them if they occur in the backfield, and if you read closely you don't need to bag fumbles or backward passes of any kind behind the NZ, the reason being that these are looseball plays and any penalty enforcement will be from the previous spot, so end of the run is not a factor...I still think it is a good habit to bag all fumbles but that is a personal decision I guess...

GeorgiaBlue · #12 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 23, 2004, 11:26am

I see no need to use a beanbag on a backwards pass - it was simply intercepted, not fumbled.

A fumble is any loss of player possession other than by handing, PASSING, or legal kick.

So there would be no beanbag on the turnover.

2-18 for fumble.
2-22 for interception.

For those that beanbag backward passes - you are doing so unnecessarily.

GeorgiaBlue · #13 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 23, 2004, 11:48am

on the actual play that terpzebra outlined, you have a looseball play - not a running play - so therefore the spot is the previous spot. You would have A 1/10 at the 30.

cmathews · #14 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 23, 2004, 11:51am

GeorgiaBlue, are you sure it is a loose ball play and if you are could you please explain why?

GeorgiaBlue · #15 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 23, 2004, 11:56am

Rule 2 section 1 article 3 of NFHS.

A loose ball is a pass, fumble or kick. A loose ball which has not yet touched the ground is in flight. A grounded loose ball is one which has touched the ground.

Notice it says NOTHING about forward or backward - behind or beyond the neutral zone.

So therefore it is a loose ball play - the qb 'passed' the ball backwards.