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Old Thu Sep 16, 2004, 08:57pm
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NFHS Rules but NCAA and Canadian comments are more than welcome. Additionally there were comments on Jim's Test Question #1 from referees' about how to handle giving the options to the captains. I found this comments to be very enlightening. I would like to hear how referees will handle these options. I'd like to let the newer officials try the question first, then the rules gurus can jump into it.


SITUATION: A has just made a fair catch givings them 1st and 10 on the A20 yardline with 2 seconds remaining in the 4th quarter. The score has A trailing by one point: A 7 and B 8.

A1 passes complete to A2 at midfield. A2 runs down the sideline to the B 2 yardline. B8 pulls A2 out of bounds on the B2 yardline by grasping and pulling A2's facemask (live ball action). After the play is over, A2 then kicks B8, then B8 punches A2 and then coach of B is unsportsmanlike to the covering official. Give the results of both accepting and declining the live ball foul(s) committed on this play. Time expired on the play.

Have fun!!!!!

[Edited by SJoldguy on Sep 16th, 2004 at 10:07 PM]
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Old Thu Sep 16, 2004, 09:20pm
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Okay, I'll bite. If A accepts the penalty, we have 1/G @ B1 and an untimed down for A. If declined, the game is over. As for the dead ball fouls, the result would be A 1/G @ B4, but A should be aware of the option to decline the penalty. The runner went OOB, so any kick will be from the hash mark. It may be advantageous for A to decline for an easier angle on the kick.
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Old Thu Sep 16, 2004, 09:37pm
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Lightbulb Canadian Ruling

Quote:
Originally posted by SJoldguy
NFHS Rules but NCAA and Canadian comments are more than welcome. Additionally there were comments on Jim's Test Question #1 from referees' about how to handle giving the options to the captains. I found this comments to be very enlightening. I would like to hear how referees will handle these options. I'd like to let the newer officials try the question first, then the rules gurus can jump into it.


SITUATION: A has just made a fair catch givings them 1st and 10 on the A20 yardline with 2 seconds remaining in the 4th quarter. The score has A trailing by one point: A 7 and B 8.

A1 passes complete to A2 at midfield. A2 runs down the sideline to the B 2 yardline. B8 pulls A2 out of bounds on the B2 yardline by grasping and pulling A2's facemask (live ball action). After the play is over, A2 then kicks B8, then B8 punches A2 and then coach of B is unsportsmanlike to the covering official. Give the results of both accepting and declining the live ball foul(s) committed on this play. Time expired on the play.
Well, we do not have a fair catch rule, so how it's A's ball on their 20 would have to be from some other method, but the play in question could still happen.

We have a UR/Facemask by B8 (15 yards). Rough Play by A2 (25 + DQ). Rough Play by B8 (25 + DQ). B coach gets an Objectionable Conduct (10 yards).

The rough plays cancel, and the UR is applied from the end of the play. The OC is also applied at the end of the run. So we got half the distance twice, and we end up on the B 1-yard line. Accepting the UR/Facemask will result on the 1 because the OC will bring the play from the 2 to the 1. Declining the Facemask ends the game.

So, A gets an untimed down from the B 1-yard line.
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Old Thu Sep 16, 2004, 10:44pm
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Wowsa.

If the penalty is accepted:

We will have an untimed play. Penalize B 1/2 the distance to the goal for the facemask to the B 1 yardline. We will penalize As personal foul first, to the B 16 yardline. Then Bs USC is enforced to the B 8 yardline. Enforce Bs coach's USC to the B 4 yardline. Throw everyone out and go home. (Ignore the last sentence).

Here's where it gets tricky: I BELIEVE (remember, I'm a lowly second year and didn't look this up in the rule book) if during a play after a fair catch there is a live ball foul on B, A has the option of free kicking for points. Thus, A can attempt a free kick from the B 4 yardline for three points.

If the live ball penalty was declined: end of game. Pack up, go home. I personally would eject everyone, and report to the state association.

[Edited by SouthGARef on Sep 16th, 2004 at 11:53 PM]
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Old Thu Sep 16, 2004, 11:26pm
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SouthGa I am going with you and I agree that a free kick is an option thus you can place the ball in the middle of the field and put it on a tee with no snap or rush
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Old Fri Sep 17, 2004, 08:36am
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According the NFHS rule 6.5.4 A would be able to free kick from the 4 y/l because the live ball foul acceptance requires the down to be replayed. (Try explaining that to a head coach!!!!)
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Old Fri Sep 17, 2004, 09:41am
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Question: How are the teams lined up for the freekick?

Question: Does the Referee give the freekick option to the captains? or coach? or both? or no one? How would you handle it on the field?
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Old Fri Sep 17, 2004, 09:46am
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Quote:
Originally posted by SJoldguy
Question: How are the teams lined up for the freekick?

Question: Does the Referee give the freekick option to the captains? or coach? or both? or no one? How would you handle it on the field?
This has been debated before. Bottom line is, Team R needs to be in the back of their endzone, you will most likely have a touchback or a fieldgoal. The problem with this is, do we pace off the other 6 yards? Because R is suppose to be 10 yards away.

If I'm R then I do not give the option, the captain must request that he wants to free kick the ball.
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Old Fri Sep 17, 2004, 09:57am
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Well doesn't the rules say that the NZ can't expand into the endzone? IMO, you'd have to line R up on the 1/2 inch line
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Old Fri Sep 17, 2004, 10:32am
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To SouthGAref

The "NZ can't expand into the EZ" pertains to the NZ expanding on a scrimmage down by 1) an offensive lineman blocking and driving a defensive lineman off the line on a pass play and 2) the automatic expanding of the neutral zone on a scrimmage kick down. The 10 yard wide NZ on a free kick is not an expanded NZ but the regular free kick NZ.

Also as to your comment about K's free kick line being inside the 1 yardline. In the Test Question #2, if we take away A2's punch foul the ball would be on the 9 INCH line.
(yardline). To be legally on the field, most R players would have to have very small feet or stand sideways!
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Old Fri Sep 17, 2004, 01:29pm
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One thing to remember here. We have two ejections no matter whether the fouls are accepted or declined. And the USL against the B coach. If that was his second, he's gone.
All of this occured before the 'end' of the game. That is when the R signals the end of game. Anything that happens before that counts.
Last year, as I'm checking for flags and such after the last play of the game, a kid starts in on the crew with language and family references. Also says"And you can't do anything about it!!!"
I tell him, "You're wrong. You're ejected". And then I held up my arm to end the game. (He couldn't play the last game of his HS career.)
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Old Fri Sep 17, 2004, 07:30pm
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So far only one referee has responded about giving the option of free kicking to the team. He said that "the captain has to ask". Is that the definitive ansnwer?
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Old Fri Sep 17, 2004, 10:37pm
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I would agree with that statement... I don't inform anyone of their option to free kick after a fair catch, so I see no reason to inform them after the penalty...

I don't know if that makes the answer "definitive", but it's another vote...
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