1st down or not

[BigGref]

2nd and about 12. Running play, A goes on a 25 yard run, putting them at about the 20. I got a hold about 3 yards past A's LTG, so we bring it back. I thought that since A got the first down with clean hands, and the foul was past the LTG, that it should be a first down. But, instead I was told that its just 10yards back from spot, repeat 2nd down, 2nd and 7. It was a junior high game with A leading by 3 touchdowns with 4 seconds remaining, so I didn't care too much then about getting it exact.

Ideas!?

[JRutledge]

Holding is a spot foul. You have to enforce it from the spot of the foul and repeat the down if after the penalty they did not get a first down.

Peace

[Snake~eyes]

Originally posted by BigGref
so I didn't care too much then about getting it exact.

That's kind of disappointing.

Like Rut said, spot foul. Falls under All but one.

It is a spot foul, but the all but one principle would not apply since the foul by the offense did not happen behind the line of scrimmage.

[mikesears]

Originally posted by goldcoastump
It is a spot foul, but the all but one principle would not apply since the foul by the offense did not happen behind the line of scrimmage.

Can you explain what you mean by this? I've read the statement, "the all-but-one principle does not apply to this foul" a couple of times.

[Snake~eyes]

Originally posted by mikesears

Can you explain what you mean by this? I've read the statement, "the all-but-one principle does not apply to this foul" a couple of times.

I'm wondering the same thing.

[sir_eldren]

Originally posted by goldcoastump
It is a spot foul, but the all but one principle would not apply since the foul by the offense did not happen behind the line of scrimmage.

That's not correct. The All-But-One Principle applies to any Team A foul behind the basic spot, not the line of scrimmage. Remember, the basic spot for a running play is the end of the run, and the basic spot (in most instances) for a loose-ball play would be the line of scrimmage.

So, if the play were a pass and the hold occured 2 yards behind the LOS, the penalty would be administered from there (as long as the hold occured before the possession was established by the receiver). Same play, and the hold occurs 3 downfield from the LOS, then so long as the hold occurs before the catch, the basic spot will be the LOS.

On a running play, it's the end of the run. Period. If the foul occurs behind that, we chop the run down to the spot of the foul and penalize from there. ;o)

For live ball penalties, adminster penalty yardage, then check for down.

-Craig

I stand corrected

[PSU213]

Originally posted by sir_eldren

That's not correct. The All-But-One Principle applies to any Team A foul behind the basic spot, not the line of scrimmage. Remember, the basic spot for a running play is the end of the run, and the basic spot (in most instances) for a loose-ball play would be the line of scrimmage.

So, if the play were a pass and the hold occured 2 yards behind the LOS, the penalty would be administered from there (as long as the hold occured before the possession was established by the receiver). Same play, and the hold occurs 3 downfield from the LOS, then so long as the hold occurs before the catch, the basic spot will be the LOS.

On a running play, it's the end of the run. Period. If the foul occurs behind that, we chop the run down to the spot of the foul and penalize from there. ;o)

For live ball penalties, adminster penalty yardage, then check for down.

-Craig

Sorry, but the all-but-one principle applies for almost every foul during the play (Rule 10-6). The "but one" part applies only if it is a foul by the offense behind the basic spot.

Also, I am just wondering: in what circumstance would the basic spot not be the previous spot for a loose ball play (I am curious because of the "in most instances")?

[ref18]

If the ball carrier had gained a first down before the foul, then it would be 10 yards back of the point of foul, 1st and 10.

If the ball carrier had not gained a first down when the foul occured, then it would be 2nd down repeated 10 yards back from the point of last scrimmage. (2nd and 22)

[Theisey]

Originally posted by PSU213
[....Also, I am just wondering: in what circumstance would the basic spot not be the previous spot for a loose ball play (I am curious because of the "in most instances")? [/B]

### Illegal forward pass (i.e. grounding a pass). The spot of the pass is the basic spot

[PSU213]

Originally posted by Theisey

### Illegal forward pass (i.e. grounding a pass). The spot of the pass is the basic spot [/B]

An illegal forward pass is a running play. Only legal forward passes are loose ball plays (10-3).

[keystoneref]

PSU has it correct. An illegal forward pass is a running play.

[sir_eldren]

Originally posted by PSU213
Also, I am just wondering: in what circumstance would the basic spot not be the previous spot for a loose ball play (I am curious because of the "in most instances")?

A foul that occurs after a fumble and before possession is (re)established: the basic spot is the end of the run, and any foul that occurs during the loose ball will be penalized from the basic spot, unless you need to apply the all-but-one principle. ;o)

-Craig

[SJoldguy]

Sir-eldren might be answering for NCAA but in NF he is not entirely correct. Fumble behind the LOS is a loose ball play, basic spot previous spot. Fumble beyond LOS is running play, basic spot end of run.

I wanted to comment on the original post use of "offense got the first down with clean hands". This seems to be where the problem started for the originator of this thread. The clean hands principle only applies to fouls during a down where there is a change of possession or more than one change of possession. The team in possession at the end of the down can retain possession of the ball if they got possession prior to committing a live ball foul other than USP.