Penalty following change of possession

[jimmiececil]

B24 intercepts A's pass and during the return the covering official blows an inadvertent whistle. B24 was at A's 9 yard line when the whistle sounded. The box is set and just prior to the ready for play, B's coach requests and is granted a time out. B's coach is irate, feeling that a sure touchdown has just been taken away and he sounds off at the official who had the inadvertent whistle. He is subsequently flagged for an unsportsmanlike conduct. After marking the penalty, are the chains reset or is it 1st and G at the 24 yard line?

According to what we have been told, it should be 1 and 10 from the 24, but I think this gives the team penalized an advantage. What does everyone else think?

[PiggSkin]

Once the chains are set, they will not be reset unless a first down is gained... Usually, the coach will earn his Unsportsmanlike foul before the chains are set, so it would be first and 10...

However, in your scenario, it sounds like the chains were set before the USC was earned... So we had first and goal at the nine, then the 15 yard penalty was issued... Back up the ball, but there is no reason to move the chains... First and goal at the 24...

[jack015]

Originally posted by PiggSkin
Once the chains are set, they will not be reset unless a first down is gained... Usually, the coach will earn his Unsportsmanlike foul before the chains are set, so it would be first and 10...

However, in your scenario, it sounds like the chains were set before the USC was earned... So we had first and goal at the nine, then the 15 yard penalty was issued... Back up the ball, but there is no reason to move the chains... First and goal at the 24...

The criteria is not when the box is set but when the ball is made ready for play. If the foul takes place prior to RFP, as described above, it is 1st and 10 at the 24. If foul occurs after RFP, it is 1st and goal at the 24.

[SeanWest]

I respectfully have to disagree with my esteemed coleague PiggSkin...

According to 5-3-1:

"The line to gain is 10 yards in advance of the ball's foremost point when a new series of downs is awarded. When a new series of downs is awarded, the penalties for all fouls (including nonplayer and unsportsmanlike) committed prior to the ready-for-play signal shall be administered before the line to gain is established. The line to gain then remains fixed until the series ends and a new line to gain is established."

Therefore, a new series can never have more than 10 yards to gain regardless of how many penalties are applied before the series starts. Whether or not the chains have already been set is irrelevant. The chains don't establish the line to gain or the ready for play, they just mark the line to gain after it's already been established. If the line changes due to penalties then reset the chains.

I think if this were the NFL that you'd be right about 1st & Goal but my understanding of the philosophy of the rule is that at the high school level (and below) beginning a series with more than 10 yards to gain is too much of a burden on the kids. After all, they're already getting pushed back 15 yards.

-SW---

[GPC2]

SeanWest,

Check out 2-25-5:

The line to gain is the yard line established when a new series (first down) is awarded. Unless there is a penalty following the ready-for-play signal, the line to gain is 10 yards in advance of the foremost point of the ball when placed for the first down of the series. If the line to gain extends into the end zone, the goal line is the line to gain.

[PiggSkin]

Who are you calling esteemed!?! Shows how little you know...

I stand corrected... The key moment is the RFP, not the chains being set...

Of course, I could just waffle out of this by saying that I don't consider the chains officially set until the RFP...

So in your situation, the only way you would have 1st and goal would be if the coach requested his timeout after the RFP was blown...

[KWH]

Originally posted by PiggSkin
I stand corrected... The key moment is the RFP, not the chains being set...

So in your situation, the only way you would have 1st and goal would be if the coach requested his timeout after the RFP was blown...

Actually PiggSkin you are incorrect again.
If the coach takes his timeout after the RFP then such RFP is cancelled and the time out takes precidence. (Ie, the 25 second clock is reset!)
After the timeout is over a new RFP will (of course) be blown and only during that 25 second count will any UC penalty result in a 1st and 25 situation.

Perhaps an easier way to remember is this way,
The only way in which a new series can start with a 1st and 25 situation is if a UC penalty occurs while the 25 second clock is running.

I hope this makes sense and helps!

[cmathews]

KWH,
without digging any further in the book than anyone else has....if the ball is made ready, then the line to gain is finalized so to speak isn't it?? if we now have a time out and a subsequent USC then I think the LTG would stay the same and make it 1st and goal from the 24 or 1st and 25...whatever the case may be...I think that the language about the RFP is in there such that once there has been an RFP then a subsequent USC during a timeout does not change the location of the LTG..?? just my thoughts...

[PiggSkin]

KWH: Is there a case book play or something that you can point me to..?

The last sentence of the previously mentioned 5-3-1 is this:
The line to gain then remains fixed until the series ends and a new line to gain is established.

Following that, I don't see how we can "un-establish" the LTG, simply because a timeout was called...

Can you elaborate..?

[KWH]

Originally posted by PiggSkin
KWH: Is there a case book play or something that you can point me to..?

The last sentence of the previously mentioned 5-3-1 is this:
The line to gain then remains fixed until the series ends and a new line to gain is established.

Following that, I don't see how we can "un-establish" the LTG, simply because a timeout was called...

Can you elaborate..?

Sure.
There are four "examples" of 5-3-1 in the 2004 Simplified and Illustrated Manual on pages 46, 47 & 48.
I realize these Case plays do not cover your specific example.
The intent of the rule is the only time a team can start a new series with a Line-to-Gain greater ten is when a dead-ball foul occurs during a time when all three of the below actions are happening:
a) After the ready for play,
b) While the 25 second clock is running, AND
c) Prior to the snap.
If you do not have all three of the above you shall move the chains after enforcement to make the new series 1st and 10.
If you do have all three of the above the new series may start with a Line-to-gain greater than 10.

I will keep searching for more background on this for you.

[SeanWest]

GPC2, You're right... I didn't mean that it is never possible for A to have 1st and greater-than-10. Of course if they get penalized after the series starts (RFP) then they could have 1st and 15 or whatever.

But what I meant was that on that very first RFP whistle on a new series of downs they will have 10 yards to gain... after that it's up to them to keep the ball going forwards and not backwards.

-SW---

[jimmiececil]

This play actually happend in a high school game last Friday.
A crew of officials in our association got in wrong and marked it 1st and goal at the 24 yard line.

I feel that this is a situation that needs to be addressed. Even though I certainly understand that the RFP had not been blown, the coach calling timeout stopped the action. His subsequent Unsportsmanlike foul was penalized, but I feel that his team also was given an advantage in having the chains reset for 1st and 10.

But, I guess if this is addressed and changed, it will probably open the door for all kinds of potential problems, so the RFP probably makes more sense.

I greatly appreciate each one of your comments and responses.

[PS2Man]

What happen to this crew?

[jimmiececil]

Nothing yet. No one caught it except for the Principal who is also a fellow official. The coach didn't complain because he didn't know. He was more aggravated at the inadvertent whistle. Luckily, his team scored on the series and won the game going away.

[Jim S]

The coach didn't know???? Wow, that's a first.