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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jul 27, 2004, 07:28pm
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on a kickoff, the receiver catches the ball at about the 4 yardline and his monentum carries him into the endzone. is the ball dead? will they have the ball on the 4 yardline to start? can he advance the ball out of the endzone? how about the same situation on a punt?
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Old Tue Jul 27, 2004, 08:24pm
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Smile How bot dem Red Sox?!

The kick is ended when R catches the free kick or scrimmage kick at R's 4 yard line. The ball is still live when R carries it into his end zone. Now if R gets tackled there or the ball is dead behind R's goal-line in R's possession (team or player) then it will be R's ball 1st and 10 at R's 4 yard line because of the momentum exception.

I'm giving a presentation on force (touchback and safety) tonight at our weekly meeting so hopefully I got this right...

May the force be with you...
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Old Tue Jul 27, 2004, 08:33pm
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No, the R team member is holding a live ball. If the ball happens to become dead by rule behind the goal line(e.g.: the runner goes down, fumbles the ball over the endline, etc.), then R will have the ball 1st and 10 at his own 4 as the momentum exception applies. Same goes for a punt.

The key word here is "catch" which is a live ball caught in flight (ie: never hit the ground). If the ball hits and bounces high in the air then possessed, it's not a catch and if the ball becomes dead behind the goal line it would then be a safety on both a free kick and punt as the momentum exception wouldn't apply.

The momentum rule has been modified to say something like "Momentum actually applies any covered defensive play situation."

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong in any of this. I've had a few snafus lately.
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Old Tue Jul 27, 2004, 08:35pm
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Talking

Looks like Simonds hit the "submit reply" before I did.
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Old Tue Jul 27, 2004, 09:18pm
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Re: How bot dem Red Sox?!

Quote:
Originally posted by Mike Simonds
The kick is ended when R catches the free kick or scrimmage kick at R's 4 yard line. The ball is still live when R carries it into his end zone. Now if R gets tackled there or the ball is dead behind R's goal-line in R's possession (team or player) then it will be R's ball 1st and 10 at R's 4 yard line because of the momentum exception.

I'm giving a presentation on force (touchback and safety) tonight at our weekly meeting so hopefully I got this right...

May the force be with you...
Looks right to me.
BTW: Can you fill me in on how your organization runs its training for officials? I noted your response about "weekly meeting." Do you meet once a week throughout the year or just as the FB season approaches? How are the "presentations" handled?
Thanks!
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Old Wed Jul 28, 2004, 08:48am
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Quote:
Originally posted by ljudge
No, the R team member is holding a live ball.
ljudge,
FED rules - ball is dead when it crosses the goal line. Rule 8-5-3a1. Momentum exception in effect.

I don't know about NCAA rules...
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Old Wed Jul 28, 2004, 09:09am
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Speaking of training, do you guys know of a source for training videos? I looked in the back of all the books and the only videos are on rules and such. I was looking for videos on mechanics.

Any ideas?
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Old Wed Jul 28, 2004, 09:19am
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Quote:
Originally posted by jumpmaster

ljudge,
FED rules - ball is dead when it crosses the goal line. Rule 8-5-3a1. Momentum exception in effect.

I don't know about NCAA rules...
REPLY: Not true! NF 8-5-3a1 only refers to a scrimmage/free kick crossing R's goal line. When this ball crosses the goal line, it's no longer a kick--it's a run in the receiver's possession, the kick having ended at R's 4. Mike and ljudge's rulings are true for both Fed and NCAA rules as long as the receiver catches the kick. As ljudge points out, in Fed, if he recovers the kick at the 4 and his momentum takes him into his endzone, the momentum exception is not in effect, and he risks a safety if he can't get the ball back into the field of play. In NCAA rules, even the recovery is subject to the momentum exception. Just one of the many differences between the two codes.
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Old Wed Jul 28, 2004, 09:46am
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Quote:
Originally posted by jumpmaster
Quote:
Originally posted by ljudge
No, the R team member is holding a live ball.
ljudge,
FED rules - ball is dead when it crosses the goal line. Rule 8-5-3a1. Momentum exception in effect.

I don't know about NCAA rules...
I don't quite get your response to the question regarding a player catching a kick on the 4 yard line and carrying it into the end zone. You said the ball is dead when it crosses the goal line and referenced Rule 8-5-3.a.1. Then you said momentum rule in effect.These two statements contradict each other.The referenced rule relates to a loose ball following a free kick or scrimmage kick. The question was about a ball in player possession, not loose. The momentum rule is an exception to the safety rule found in 8-5-2.a. If a defensive player catches or intercepts between the 5 yard line and the goal line the ball is still alive and he may run it out. However, if the ball becomes dead in the end zone in his teams possession or goes out of bounds in the end zone, it is not a safety and his team gets the ball where it was caught or intercepted.
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Old Wed Jul 28, 2004, 11:06am
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wrong rule

oops!
I should have cited '8-5-2a EXCEPTION' - when B catches a kick between 5 yard line and his goal line, and his original momentum carries him into the endzone, the ball is dead in his teams' possession at the spot where the kick was caught.

FWIW - 8.5.3 sit B states that the ball becomes dead when the kick breaks the plane of R's goal line.
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Old Wed Jul 28, 2004, 11:40am
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Re: wrong rule

Quote:
Originally posted by jumpmaster
oops!
I should have cited '8-5-2a EXCEPTION' - when B catches a kick between 5 yard line and his goal line, and his original momentum carries him into the endzone, the ball is dead in his teams' possession at the spot where the kick was caught.

FWIW - 8.5.3 sit B states that the ball becomes dead when the kick breaks the plane of R's goal line.
### The ball does not become dead just because B's momentum takes him into the EZ. The ball is returned to the spot of catche if by rule, it subsequently becomes dead in the EZ in team-b's possession. Such as if he takes a knee in the EZ.

Exmaple 8.5.3-sit.b is a kicked ball going into the EZ. Once caught (or for that matter recovered) the KICK part of the play is over. Definitions! we gotta know them else the wrong result will be applied.
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Old Wed Jul 28, 2004, 11:52am
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Re: wrong rule

Quote:
Originally posted by jumpmaster
oops!
I should have cited '8-5-2a EXCEPTION' - when B catches a kick between 5 yard line and his goal line, and his original momentum carries him into the endzone, the ball is dead in his teams' possession at the spot where the kick was caught.

FWIW - 8.5.3 sit B states that the ball becomes dead when the kick breaks the plane of R's goal line.
REPLY: I still contend that you're misreading 8-5-2a EXCEPTION. It says "When a defensive player intercepts a forward pass, fumble, backward pass by an opponent or catches a scrimmage kick or free kick between his 5-yard line and the goal line and his original momentum carries him into the end zone where the ball is declared dead in his team's possession or it goes out of bounds in the end zone, the ball belongs to Team B at the spot where the pass or fumble was intercepted or the kick was caught."

The words "where the ball becomes dead" in the rule has the same meaning as saying "if the ball becomes dead." It's not declaring that the ball automatically becomes dead in such a situation. In such situations, you need to let the down play itself out until the ball becomes dead by rule. Then if the ball has become dead in B's endzone, the momentum exception kicks in and the ball is awarded to B at his 4 yard line. Consider these plays:

A’s pass is intercepted by B20 at B’s 3. His momentum carries him into his endzone where:
(a) he falls to the ground. RULING ME applies. B’s ball 1-10 from B’s 3
(b) he is tackled in the endzone by A45. RULING ME applies. B’s ball 1-10 from B’s 3
(c) he fumbles the ball and it rolls across the endline. RULING ME applies. B’s ball 1-10 from B’s 3
(d) he hands the ball to his teammate, B12 who runs out of bounds in the endzone. RULING ME applies. B’s ball 1-10 from B’s 3
(e) he sees he’s about to get tackled so he throws the ball backwards across the endline. RULING ME applies. B’s ball 1-10 from B’s 3.
(f) He attempts to run the ball out and gets tackled at his 1. RULING ME does not apply. B’s ball 1-10 from B’s 1.
(g) He brings the ball back into the field of play and then circles back into the end zone where he is tackled. RULING ME does not apply. Safety. Award A two points.

And remember that the basic spot for any fouls that occur after the interception is the end of the run which, according to NF 10-3-3c is B’s 3 (the spot of the interception). And don’t forget to apply the all-but-one principle in such cases.
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Old Thu Jul 29, 2004, 09:06am
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What if he is tackled and the ball comes loose and is declared dead in the field of play or rolls out of bounds on the 2 or 3 yardline? It has not become dead in the end zone - does ME still apply?
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Old Thu Jul 29, 2004, 10:08am
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Quote:
Originally posted by ABoselli
What if he is tackled and the ball comes loose and is declared dead in the field of play or rolls out of bounds on the 2 or 3 yardline? It has not become dead in the end zone - does ME still apply?
REPLY: No...the ME is only there to prevent the inequitable awarding of a safety if/when the ball becomes dead in B's endzone and his momentum (run) was what put it there. Since in your play the ball does not become dead in B's endzone or out-of-bounds in B's endzone, the ME doesn't apply. But when you think about it, B can't get hurt too much...unless A recovers the loose ball back in the field of play. But that's the chances B takes if they attempt to run it out.
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Old Thu Jul 29, 2004, 10:20am
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Let's say B intercepts a pass at the 1 and his momentum takes him into the EZ, where almost immediately, the ball is stripped from his grasp and he fumbles (he had gotten possession). While the ball is loose, B2 holds A2 at B's 3. The ball rolls back out to B's 5 and B5 recovers it there.

If the ME is not in effect, the related run ended in the end zone, making that the basic spot for enforcement of the hold while the ball was loose, making it a safety. I don't believe any of us would ever rule safety as a)the ball wasn't recovered in the end zone and b) the foul didn't occur in the end zone.

If that's the case, then our basic spot would be the momentum spot - B's 1 - and we would go 1/2 the distance and give B the ball there 1st and 10 going out.
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