Offsetting Personal Fouls

[BigGref]

OK, What happens when you have two dead ball PFs? Example 2nd and 10, A23 runs from the 28 to the 23, making it 3rd and 5, right after the play is blown dead B55 lays a blatant late hit on the runner, while lineman A78 takes offense and knocks B55 to ground with a shot to the side (but not hard enough that it could injure, just a good push). Covering officials throw 2 flags, both late hit PFs. Where is the next play started from?

[Bob M.]

REPLY: You said "blatant" not "flagrant." So I'm assuming you meant that it was obvious as opposed to vicious. Therefore, no DQs.

For Federation, since it was clear that B55's foul occurred first and only thereafter did A78 retaliate, you are forced by rule to enforce in the order of occurrence. Half the distance against B makes it 1-10 from B's 11.5. Then penalize A. The result would be A's ball 1-10 from B's 26.5 Remember...the LTG isn't established until all fouls are disposed of.

In NCAA rules, because the second foul is reported before the first is completed, these fouls offset and there is no penalty yardage assessed.

[Jim S]

And under FED rules these fouls never "offset". Even at the 50 yard line. You always march them off even though you're going to wind up back where you were to start. If for no other reason that it stops questions when you have the same situation when it does make a difference.

[BigGref]

Originally posted by Jim S
And under FED rules these fouls never "offset". Even at the 50 yard line. You always march them off even though you're going to wind up back where you were to start. If for no other reason that it stops questions when you have the same situation when it does make a difference.

Kind of like when you change the clock 2 seconds in the middle of the 3rd quarter, it sets up for any doubt about clock confusion 8 seconds to go in a 1 point 4th quarter game. It shows you are on top of things!

[Ed Hickland]

Originally posted by Jim S
And under FED rules these fouls never "offset". Even at the 50 yard line. You always march them off even though you're going to wind up back where you were to start. If for no other reason that it stops questions when you have the same situation when it does make a difference.

The concept of marching off each dead ball and/or unsportsmanlike foul and ending up at the same spot seems to confound so many NFHS officials.

It is simple, you are penalizing each and every foul. Of course, NCAA rules give that an offset. Where it gets tricky is when the ball is inside either 30. If the first foul is penalized half-the-distance you will not return to the same spot.

So think about it. If the fouls occur at the 50 you walk off both fouls and return to the fifty. It could almost look like you are confused since the down never changes. But now positioned at the 20 and the first team is penalized half-the-distance which takes you to the 10. Then the second walk off takes you to the 25.

Best thing to do is explain it to the coaches and hope they understand. Of course, every crew in your association needs to do it the same way every time.

[bigwes68]

Originally posted by Bob M.

For Federation, since it was clear that B55's foul occurred first and only thereafter did A78 retaliate, you are forced by rule to enforce in the order of occurrence. Half the distance against B makes it 1-10 from B's 11.5. Then penalize A. The result would be A's ball 1-10 from B's 26.5 Remember...the LTG isn't established until all fouls are disposed of.

A bit confused....I understand that the LTG isn't established until all penalties are enforced. But the half-the-distance against B gives A a first down? And then the succeeding enforcement against A still gives A a first down? Why would it not be 3rd and 8.5 from the 26.5?

[Bob M.]

REPLY: bigwes68...don't confuse "line to gain" with "new series." In the original play, B was unfortunate enough to foul first. Hence the enforcement for his foul (half the distance from B's 23) does take A to a point beyond the original LTG. Hence, at that point, he's awarded a new series--i.e. a first down. Now we penalize A for his stupidity. That brings the ball back to the 26.5 and it's still a first down. Now we set the chains so that it's 1-10 for A from B's 26.5. [Note: Not too many years ago--prior to 1997 to be exact--the chains would have been set after the first enforcement awarded A a new series and left there. That would have resulted in it being A's ball 1-25 from B's 26.5]

If Team A had fouled first, it would have resulted in a situation similar to the one you describe: Penalize A 15 from B's 23 back to B's 38. Then penalize B 15 yards back to B's 23. That would leave the ball in A's hands still behind the LTG. The result would be A's ball, 3-5 from B's 23.

[bigwes68]

Thanks for clarifying, Bob.