What is Offside for Real!

[Coach Gerry Faust]

Let us take the ball and run with this post!
It only had 245 people read it.

In High School Football, I always Flag anyone lined up inside the Neutral Zone as soon as the QB goes under the Center!
I have never clariffied that timing with anyone.
I was always correct!
In my mind!
I see some Centers adjust the ball to make a Snap
with the Ball in a Vertical Position!
They are usually taller.
This places them back further unlike a normal snap
which puts a tall center completely over the Ball
and in the Zone.
Let us (pray) respond,
Coach FUZZY Faust.

[Snake~eyes]

I'm kind of confused by your post. Not really sure who's lining up in the neutral zone but the center is allowed to line up in the neutral zone.

[mikesears]

I am going from memory here .....

I believe encroachment restriction for all begin when the center puts his hand(s) on the football.

Center is allowed to have any part of his body in the neutral zone (except his feet--if I recall correctly). No part of his body may be beyond the nuetral zone.

[Snake~eyes]

Originally posted by mikesears
I believe encroachment restriction for all begin when the center puts his hand(s) on the football.

Center is allowed to have any part of his body in the neutral zone (except his feet--if I recall correctly). No part of his body may be beyond the nuetral zone.

I agree 100%.

[Ed Hickland]

First, I think we are talking about NFHS rules in which there is no such thing as offsides.

Under NFHS the neutral zone is established once the ready-for-play is sounded. Neither side can encroach, if they do, it is enroachment and a dead ball.

The center is allowed to have his hands in the neutral zone and can adjust the ball without penalty.

As for when you penalize for encroachment. Most high school fields make it difficult to establish whether ends are lined up correctly. Therefore, benefit of the doubt as long as there is no advantage gained. If the encroachment is slight, warn the offender and let the coach know. If it persists, then flag it.

[Jim S]

Almost Ed. Players can encroach until the snapper puts his hand(s) on the ball as long as they do not touch the ball, an opponent, or are there giving defensive signals. (anybody actually ever called this last one?)

Just for the rules. Shouldn't ever happen of course.
Play: Previous play has ended. RFP is blown while B42 is still in the backfield of A where he remains. A steps up to the line, center adjusts the ball and snaps the ball legally. Is there a foul? And, if so, what is the foul? And when does it take place?

[Ed Hickland]

Originally posted by Jim S
Almost Ed. Players can encroach until the snapper puts his hand(s) on the ball as long as they do not touch the ball, an opponent, or are there giving defensive signals. (anybody actually ever called this last one?)

Check out 2-8. The ready for play marks the beginning of encroachment restrictions which continue until the snap except for entering substitutes.

[mikesears]

Originally posted by Ed Hickland

Check out 2-8. The ready for play marks the beginning of encroachment restrictions which continue until the snap except for entering substitutes.

Unless this was changed, Jim S is correct. I am at work with no access to my books. Can someone post the rule/casebook reference?

[Ed Hickland]

Originally posted by mikesears

Unless this was changed, Jim S is correct. I am at work with no access to my books. Can someone post the rule/casebook reference?

Rule 2-8...Defintion of Encroachment

Encroachment occurs when a player is illegally in the neutral zone during the time interval starting when the ball is ready for play and until the ball is snapped. For the purposes of enforcing encroachment restrictions, an entering substitute is not considered to be a player until he is on his team's side of the neutral zone.

Case Book

2.8 SITUATION A: After the ball is ready for play for a scrimmage down: (a) B1 enters the neutral zone to give defensive signals; or (b) B2, the nose guard, places his hand on the ground so that it is in contact with the ball. After the ready-for-play signal and the snapper places hand(s) on the ball: (c) A1 or B3 break the plane of the neutral zone; or (d) B1 is conferring with his coach and is on A's side of the neutral zone. RULING: Encroachment in (a), (b), (c) and (d). Whenever a player is illegally in the neutral zone, it is encroachment. (7-1, 2)

I do understand the confusion that arises from the wording in 7-1-5:

Before the snap. . . No other player shall encroach on the neutral zone after the ball is ready for play by touching the ball or an opponent or by being in the neutral zone to give defensive signals.

Which says the center's hand can encroach.

One of my pet peeves is the language of the Rule Book which can be confusing. Maybe football officiating should be the sole province of English teachers and lawyers!

[Dale Smith]

Originally posted by Ed Hickland

Rule 2-8...Defintion of Encroachment

Encroachment occurs when a player is illegally in the neutral zone during the time interval starting when the ball is ready for play and until the ball is snapped. For the purposes of enforcing encroachment restrictions, an entering substitute is not considered to be a player until he is on his team's side of the neutral zone.

Case Book

2.8 SITUATION A: After the ball is ready for play for a scrimmage down: (a) B1 enters the neutral zone to give defensive signals; or (b) B2, the nose guard, places his hand on the ground so that it is in contact with the ball. After the ready-for-play signal and the snapper places hand(s) on the ball: (c) A1 or B3 break the plane of the neutral zone; or (d) B1 is conferring with his coach and is on A's side of the neutral zone. RULING: Encroachment in (a), (b), (c) and (d). Whenever a player is illegally in the neutral zone, it is encroachment. (7-1, 2)

I do understand the confusion that arises from the wording in 7-1-5:

Before the snap. . . No other player shall encroach on the neutral zone after the ball is ready for play by touching the ball or an opponent or by being in the neutral zone to give defensive signals.

Which says the center's hand can encroach.

One of my pet peeves is the language of the Rule Book which can be confusing. Maybe football officiating should be the sole province of English teachers and lawyers!

Ed, the examples you give are violations of rule 7-1-5. Rule 7-1-6 states “Following the ready for play and after the snapper has placed his hand(s) on the ball, encroachment occurs if any other player breaks the plane of the neutral zone.”
Basically as long as the snapper has not touched the ball any player can encroach on the neutral zone (as long as 7-1-5 has not been violated) and get back with out committing a foul. A lot of smart offensive line coaches will have the line come up bend over, without placing their hands below the knee and have the snapper check the position of the linemen prior to touching the ball. The snapper can then tell a lineman to move back as required.
Dale Smith

[Jim S]

"One of my pet peeves is the language of the Rule Book which can be confusing. Maybe football officiating should be the sole province of English teachers and lawyers! "

Watch what you ask for Ed. Remember that is is lawyers who make up the wording for contracts and the tax laws.... and we all know how many people understand those!

[Ed Hickland]

Originally posted by Dale Smith

Ed, the examples you give are violations of rule 7-1-5. Rule 7-1-6 states “Following the ready for play and after the snapper has placed his hand(s) on the ball, encroachment occurs if any other player breaks the plane of the neutral zone.”
Basically as long as the snapper has not touched the ball any player can encroach on the neutral zone (as long as 7-1-5 has not been violated) and get back with out committing a foul. A lot of smart offensive line coaches will have the line come up bend over, without placing their hands below the knee and have the snapper check the position of the linemen prior to touching the ball. The snapper can then tell a lineman to move back as required.
Dale Smith

I stand corrected. If you look at 7-1-6 in the Illustrated it so pictures what you said.

To me it seems a contradiction of 2-8 or, at least, the word illegal is ambiguous because if yu are in the neutral zone after the ready and before the snapper places his hand on the ball according to 7-1-6 that is not illegal.

Of course, in practice, it would take an act of God for me to call one of those.

[Edited by Ed Hickland on May 19th, 2004 at 05:46 PM]

[JMN]

Ed,

It's refreshing to hear someone say "I stand corrected". Thanks for being honest about the debate at hand regarding encroachment.

This is the true spirit of debating and learning on this board. There may be a number of opinions, but when we boil it down to the rules, we should seek THE answer. I love a good debate on a rule, but if we're patient with one another in searching for the truth, then we will all benefit.

Thanks to everyone that contributes to the honest give and take.

[Jim S]

Ed, the difference is that the definition in this case is just that , a definition. It doesn't define what being in the NZ illegally is. The later rule does that.
Some of the definitions have rules attached to them. And that's why we're always trying to get people to read, read, and re-read Rule 2. It's also where a lot of the mistakes in application of rules occur, because people don't get the ground floor down and have only assumptions to build on. Not jumping on you about this, just like to get a plug in for studying Rule 2 whenever possible.

[Edited by Jim S on May 20th, 2004 at 03:16 AM]

[Ed Hickland]

Originally posted by Jim S
Ed, the difference is that the definition in this case is just that , a definition. It doesn't define what being in the NZ illegally is. The later rule does that.
Some of the definitions have rules attached to them. And that's why we're always trying to get people to read, read, and re-read Rule 2. It's also where a lot of the mistakes in application of rules occur, because people don't get the ground floor down and have only assumptions to build on. Not jumping on you about this, just like to get a plug in for studying Rule 2 whenever possible.

[Edited by Jim S on May 20th, 2004 at 03:16 AM]

I am all in favor of reading and understanding Rule 2. Just like reading the law it gives the basic understanding of the rules or law (soccer has laws not rules).

So much is left to interpretation and that often changes or is misread.

As for encroachment, the definition does nto agree with the rule. Rule 2-8 starts encroachment with the ready for play while 7-1-6 starts encroachment with the center placing his hands on the ball. The obvious intent is to enforce encroachment from the time the center places his hands on the ball. Therefore, the definition should be amended to agree with the rule.