Uncle Ernie's April Quiz

[Bob M.]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mikesears

Before I go any further, is this correct?

REPLY: Looks good to me Mike...but what do I know?

For NF, it's a tough decision for B. They obviously can't accept the penalty for A's foul since A will just kneel or sneak it into the line on the untimed down and the game will be over. But, since B did make a fair catch, they can attempt a free kick in an attempt to win the game, or can run a play from scrimmage.

For NCAA, again B cannot decline since A will also decline and that's the ball game! But if they accept, they do not have the free kick option like they would in Fed. Their only choice is a play from scrimmage.

[mikesears]

Originally posted by James Neil
Well guys it’s time again for UE monthly quiz. I can’t believe it’s April already. My how time flies when you’re having fun.

2. A 4/G B48. The score is A28-B28. QB A17's legal forward pass is caught by A82. A82 advances to B's 4 and fumbles. The fumble rolls through B's end zone. B79 roughs the passer. Two seconds remain in the fourth quarter.
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OK. Let's give #2 a try from NFHS and NCAA codes.

Under both codes, results of the play is a touchback for B (under both codes) so Team A is going to accept the penalty for the foul.


NF: Enforcement of the RTP will be from the B-4 because that is the end of the run and there wasn't a change of possession during the down. 1/10 for Team A from B-2. Clock starts on the snap.

NCAA: Enforcement of the roughing will also be from the B-4. 1/10 for Team A from the B-2. My question is in regards to the clock. Clock starts on the RFP because ball was fumbled and became dead in advance of the spot of the fumble???? If so, then Team A must get the next play off before time expires or the period will end. Is this correct? I am just starting to dig into the NCAA rulebook.

[Bob M.]

Originally posted by JMN
I'll take a stab at these. NCAA rules. Guys, please be gentle

>>>>>>> How badly did I kick these plays??

REPLY: I haven't looked at all of them but here are some initial thoughts...

#2 - Might want to reconsider the clock...or at least the reason for starting it on the snap.

#3 - Reconsider the clock. A legal kick play just took place. (By the way, in Federation, unlike NCAA, there was no reason to stop the clock. It should have continued to run.)

#7 - How many points should be awarded to Team B? Remember, they scored what would normally be a TD during a try down. See NCAA 8-1-1 and 8-3-1.

[James Neil]

Looks like I’ll have agreed with you guys about the enforcement spot on the RTP play. But I don’t agree that it’s the fairest spot as it denies A yardage that they’ve legally gained. I guess I can get some consolation from the fact that the NCAA code agrees with my ruling. I thank both Jim S and Bob M for straitening me out. . Anyway, time to move on. Here are my NF answers for Aprils quiz.


1. A 4/16 A1. The score is A14-B13. A4's punt is caught by B29 on A's 26 after a valid fair catch signal. During the down, B63 blocked A44 in the back on A's 28 and A74 blocked B95 below the waist on A's 22. Time expired in the fourth quarter during the down.
B has a choice of declining A’s foul and having theirs enforced under PSK. Or they can accept creating a double foul replaying the down. One way or the other there’s going to be one un-timed down.
Accept; A 4/16 @ A-1, un-timed
Decline; B1/10 @ A-38, un-timed
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2. A 4/G B48. The score is A28-B28. QB A17's legal forward pass is caught by A82. A82 advances to B's 4 and fumbles. The fumble rolls through B's end zone. B79 roughs the passer. Two seconds remain in the fourth quarter

Accept A 1/G @ B-2 clock on snap
Decline B 1/10 @ B-20 clock on first legal touching
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3. A 3/G B3. The score is A28-B28 with nine seconds remaining in the fourth quarter. A8's field goal attempt is blocked. A78 recovers on B's 9 and advances to B's 2 where he is downed. The kick does not cross the neutral zone. Three seconds remain on the clock.

A 4/G @ B-2 clock on the ready
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4. A 1/10 B12. The ball is on the left hash. QB A12 on B's 19 and throws the ball beyond the neutral zone to an area where no eligible receivers are located. During A12's scramble, A67 held on B's 15

Multiple foul on Team A
Accept for intentional grounding; A 2/22 @ B-24 clock on snap
Accept for holding; A 1/27 @ B-29 clock on snap
Decline; A 2/17 @ B-19 clock on snap
(These options will only take 20 minutes to figure out and another 20 to explain and 20 more for B to make his decision)
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5. A 2/4 B8. QB A18 hands off to A44 on B's 13. A44 runs to B's 6 near the sideline where B55 hits him causing the ball to come loose. B38 then deflects the bouncing ball and B12 controls the ball while touching the end line.

Assuming the deflection was a legal muff, TB B 1/10 @ B-20 clock on snap
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6. A 3/12 B18. A16's legal forward pass is airborne when B34 grabs A88's jersey on B's 13, thus limiting A88's ability to jump for the pass.

DPI Accept; A 1/G @ B-9 clock on snap
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7. A TRY B3. The snap is high after which A4 places and holds the ball for a place kick for A6 who is in position to kick the ball. B96 bats the ball from A4's hand, recovers and advances across A's goal line.

B scores 2 points in the State of Oregon only. Otherwise ball is dead when recovered by B
BTW... If this happens and I’m the WH I’m blowing it dead as soon as B recovers and taking an IW cause I aint running 90 dam yards to cover.
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8. A 4/12 A18. A8's punt is caught on B's 47 by B21 who advances to A's 46 and fumbles. A94 recovers on A's 48 while grounded. Team A had six players on the line at the snap. B41 blocked A83 in the back on A's 44 during the punt.

Because B wasn’t in possession of the ball at the end of the down, no PSK.
Double foul, Replay the down. Clock on the ready

[Bob M.]

REPLY: Jim (Neil, that is)...in #3 you say clock on the ready. Why would you have stopped the clock on the play? Shouldn't it have continued to run?

And I see Oregon is experimenting with the NCAA rule of allowing B to score on a try. I hope they've covered all their bases on how fouls during such a play are handled. It could be confusing if not clearly defined. Let us all know how it turns out. I remember my first college game. I was the BJ and had the whistle on the try. Kick was blocked. My cheeks were filled with air and ready to blow when it hit me. I was spared an IW!

[InTheTrenches]

James Neil

3. A 3/G B3. The score is A28-B28 with nine seconds remaining in the fourth quarter. A8's field goal attempt is blocked. A78 recovers on B's 9 and advances to B's 2 where he is downed. The kick does not cross the neutral zone. Three seconds remain on the clock.

A 4/G @ B-2 clock on the ready


Why do you stop the clock after the kick and start it again on the ready? There was no change of possesion and there was no new series of downs awarded. I could not find a situation in the rules that covers this exactly but I think with the two criteria I stated that the clock should not be stopped unless there is a time out called. Am I mistaken or missing something else?

P.S. I think the rest of your rulings are good.

[Bob Floyd]

Originally posted by InTheTrenches
James Neil

3. A 3/G B3. The score is A28-B28 with nine seconds remaining in the fourth quarter. A8's field goal attempt is blocked. A78 recovers on B's 9 and advances to B's 2 where he is downed. The kick does not cross the neutral zone. Three seconds remain on the clock.

A 4/G @ B-2 clock on the ready


Why do you stop the clock after the kick and start it again on the ready? There was no change of possesion and there was no new series of downs awarded. I could not find a situation in the rules that covers this exactly but I think with the two criteria I stated that the clock should not be stopped unless there is a time out called. Am I mistaken or missing something else?

P.S. I think the rest of your rulings are good.

I agree with your question regarding the clock. Unless A calls timeout ( assuming they have one left) the clock would continue to run and I suspect there would not be enough time to get off another play. Overtime guys!

[Bob Floyd]

James Neil
Question #2-Your ruling: Accept A 1/G @ B2 Clock on snap. OK
Decline B 1/10 @ B20 Clock on first legal touching. Your ruling apparently assumes the ball will be put in play by a kick. If A declines you have a touchback. Ball will be put in play by snap. Clock starts on the snap.

[James Neil]

I have absolutely no idea what I was thinking for the clock in question 2. B will be putting the ball in play with a snap that will also start the clock.
As for #3, again I wasn’t paying attention. Sorry about that, The clock continues to roll

[Bob Mc]

Originally posted by Bob M.
REPLY: Jim (Neil, that is)...in #3 you say clock on the ready. Why would you have stopped the clock on the play? Shouldn't it have continued to run?

And I see Oregon is experimenting with the NCAA rule of allowing B to score on a try. I hope they've covered all their bases on how fouls during such a play are handled. It could be confusing if not clearly defined. Let us all know how it turns out. I remember my first college game. I was the BJ and had the whistle on the try. Kick was blocked. My cheeks were filled with air and ready to blow when it hit me. I was spared an IW!

Bob, I agree that it could get interesting in Oregon. We are already working on how to cover the bases with this and avoid the cheeks full of air

[Bob M.]

REPLY: Bob Mc...On every try, get into the habit of indicating a "live ball" (rolling the arms similar to a false start signal) and getting a positive response from the entire crew. That will minimize the chances of an IW on a try. And remember, this is true for tries by kick as well as by run.

By the way, for you Oregonians (is that a word?) if you want to see what I meant about fouls during a try that includes a change of possession, go out to the NCAA rule book (see link) and look at rule 8-3-3 and 8-3-4 on pages FR100 and FR101. Some of the rules are immaterial to the Federation game, but at least 8-3-3-c-3, 8-3-4-a, and 8-3-4-c will need to at least be considered in your experiment. And don't forget...if there is a change of possession during a try--whether or not B scores--this has no bearing whatsoever on who next kicks off. Team A will free kick after the try down regardless.

http://www.ncaa.org/library/rules/20...ball_rules.pdf

[KWH]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bob M.
By the way, for you Oregonians...

Hello Bob M.

We hope to have the Oregon rule posted on one of our websites soon. We are still wordsmithing at this time. We looked at the NCAA rule when gathering information and elected to stay away from it. The Oregon rule follows NFHS mindset where no foul goes unpunished. The NCAA rule most certainly does not. Therefore the Oregon rule is substantially different from the NCAA rule. We did use some of the AR's from the NCAA book as case plays, they just have NFHS results. The NFHS rule is much cleaner and only involves one exception. Under the NCAA code the exceptions never seem to stop! I will put a post on this board when we get it finalized. I would be interested in your take.

-Kevin

[Bob Mc]

We hope to have the Oregon rule posted on one of our websites soon.

KWH when you get the wordsmithing done email to me if you please so's us in the Mid-Columbia can play from the same book as you in Portland. Thanks

[Uncle Ernie]

Okay, a question regarding the discussions that are going on here. Don't kill me....I don't have a good handle on NFHS rules...these are legitimate questions.

1. A 4/16 A1. The score is A14-B13. A4's punt is caught by B29 on A's 26 after a valid fair catch signal. During the down, B63 blocked A44 in the back on A's 28 and A74 blocked B95 below the waist on A's 22. Time expired in the fourth quarter during the down.

Everyone seems in agreement that there will be an untimed down no matter what in this play. What am I missing?

Okay, say we go to B and ask if they want to accept the foul for A or decline to keep the ball. B says we want to decline A's foul, because we want the ball. So then, you go to A and see what they want to do with B's foul. Team A, being smart, says we want to decline the foul by B so the game will be over. Can they decline this foul?

[Bob Floyd]

Originally posted by Uncle Ernie
Okay, a question regarding the discussions that are going on here. Don't kill me....I don't have a good handle on NFHS rules...these are legitimate questions.

1. A 4/16 A1. The score is A14-B13. A4's punt is caught by B29 on A's 26 after a valid fair catch signal. During the down, B63 blocked A44 in the back on A's 28 and A74 blocked B95 below the waist on A's 22. Time expired in the fourth quarter during the down.

Everyone seems in agreement that there will be an untimed down no matter what in this play. What am I missing?

Okay, say we go to B and ask if they want to accept the foul for A or decline to keep the ball. B says we want to decline A's foul, because we want the ball. So then, you go to A and see what they want to do with B's foul. Team A, being smart, says we want to decline the foul by B so the game will be over. Can they decline this foul?

The answer is no, thay may not decline B's foul. In fact, when B declines A's foul there are no more options. The penalty for B's foul must be enforced because both cannot be declined. After enforcement for B's foul, it is B's ball at A's 38 yard line for an untimed down.