Double Fouls, PSK and more....

[FredFan7]

4th and 10 at the 50. K in punt formation. At the snap R55 is held by K25 at K's 45. After the punt and after the ball crossed the neutral zone R55 shoves K25 in the face mask, drawing an illegal use of hands penalty. R10 catches the ball at his own 10, and proceeds to return the kick all the way to K's 15 yard line. After R10 is downed, K99 deliveres a late hit on R10. What ya got?!

[Bob M.]

REPLY: Double foul -- K replays 4th down. Then enforce the DBF from K's 50. Result: K, 4-25 from K's 35. R55's foul is not PSK-enforceable since (I'm assuming) it took place behind the NZ. That means that R fouled PRIOR to gaining final possession.

[Uncle Ernie]

This doesn't sound right...need some help here...

A 4/25 A35. Clock on the Snap.

The team last gaining possession fouled before gainging possession, so the live ball fouls are going to offset. We still enforce the late hit, which would be from the previous spot.

This seems kinda strange to me...what am I missing?

[kentref]

4th and 10 at the 50. K in punt formation. At the snap R55 is held by K25 at K's 45. After the punt and after the ball crossed the neutral zone R55 shoves K25 in the face mask, drawing an illegal use of hands penalty. R10 catches the ball at his own 10, and proceeds to return the kick all the way to K's 15 yard line. After R10 is downed, K99 deliveres a late hit on R10. What ya got?!


How about this:
R is last in possession and can retain the ball by declining the holding foul on K25. PSK applies (2003 rules) because the foul by R55 is after the ball crossed the neutral zone. R55's foul will be enforced from the PSK spot which is the end of the kick (R's 10 yard line). The penalty is enforced half the distance to the goal which places the ball at R's 5. The dead ball personal foul on K99 is enforced from the succeeding spot, (R's 5) which results in 1st and 10 for R at R's 20.

[FredFan7]

Kentref, that's what I had. Although, if I were R, I'd accept the penalty, and make K kick it again from its own 35. I thought of that play while serving on jury duty!:-) I paid attention to the case......HA!

Why would it not be PSK? Does the actual FOUL have to take place beyond the NZ too? I don't have a rule book handy or I'd look it up. Is it August yet?!?!?!

[Dale Smith]

Originally posted by FredFan7
Kentref, that's what I had. Although, if I were R, I'd accept the penalty, and make K kick it again from its own 35. I thought of that play while serving on jury duty!:-) I paid attention to the case......HA!

Why would it not be PSK? Does the actual FOUL have to take place beyond the NZ too? I don't have a rule book handy or I'd look it up. Is it August yet?!?!?!

Gentleman, Remember in order for PSK to apply the foul by B must occurre beyond the NZ expanded under NFHS, and more than 3 yards beyond the NZ in NCAA. In this play if B’s foul occurred at A’s 45 we have a double foul and the down will be replayed. B can not decline A’s foul and retain possession in this case. You still enforce the deadball foul for the late hit.
Dale Smith

[kentref]

I agree that if R's foul is at K's 45, PSK (using the 2003 rules interpretation), would not apply, but the caseplay, as stated, doesn't say where R's foul occurs. I haven't seen the official language for the revised PSK rule, but assuming that PSK now applies "from the snap," my original interpretation would be correct.

[Dale Smith]

Originally posted by kentref
I agree that if R's foul is at K's 45, PSK (using the 2003 rules interpretation), would not apply, but the caseplay, as stated, doesn't say where R's foul occurs. I haven't seen the official language for the revised PSK rule, but assuming that PSK now applies "from the snap," my original interpretation would be correct.

The part of the PSK rule regarding the spot where foul has occurred has not changed. What has changed is the timing part of the rule. Last year in order for PSK to apply the foul had to occur after the kicked ball crossed the NZ. This year PSK can apply starting when the ball is snapped.
Please remember 5 questions must be answered “yes” for PSK to apply
1. Was the play a scrimmage kick other then a try?
2. Did the kicked ball cross the NZ?
3. Was the spot of B’s foul beyond the NZ expanded (NFHS) or more then 3 yards beyond the NZ (NCAA)?
4. Did the foul happen prior to the kick ending?
5. Was B in possession of the ball at the end of the play?

If you answer yes to all 5 of these questions the PSK rule applies to the play. Answer no to any one of the questions the PSK rule is not applicable to the play.
Dale Smith

[FredFan7]

I meant to have the R foul behind the NZ.

[Bob M.]

Originally posted by FredFan7
I meant to have the R foul behind the NZ.

REPLY: Then there's no question...it's a double foul. Replay the down after enforcing the penalty for K's late hit. There's no need to speak with any captains regarding the live ball fouls because there are no choices to make. The new wording of the Fed's PSK rule is supposed to open the PSK window at the snap (a la NCAA) but this doesn't in any way remove or alter the requirement that R's foul must be beyond the ENZ in order to consider PSK enforcement.

[Bob Floyd]

Excellent interpretation Bob M. As Dale stated, there are five criteria which must be met for PSK. In this play one was not met, ie., spot of foul was not beyond the NZ. Double foul, enforce dead ball foul by K. 4th and 25 at K's 35. Clock starts on ready for play

[Edited by Bob Floyd on Feb 24th, 2004 at 02:52 PM]

[Theisey]

Originally posted by Bob Floyd
... Clock starts on ready for play

[Edited by Bob Floyd on Feb 24th, 2004 at 02:52 PM]

### Unless this were a game played under NCAA rules.