Slot "back" too far forward

Rich · #1 (**permalink**) Wed Oct 29, 2003, 11:35am

I was working a HS playoff game last night and the following happened.

#20 was lined up in a slot position -- he intended to be a back, but he was just way too far forward. Half of him was hidden by the end. He also turned inward -- at about a 45 degree angle.

I flagged this as an illegal formation. #20 was not approximately parallel to the line of scrimmage, so he wasn't legally lined up as a lineman. He wasn't far enough back to be a back.

I had the hardest time explaining this to the other wing so he could take this back to the coach. Did what I explain above make sense to anyone? BTW, I could've considered him a lineman and then flagged him for ineligible downfield, too, but I flagged it at the snap.

My season is over. 41-15 last night. A team tried a double reverse from its own end zone and fumbled the second exchange. A B player fell on it for a TD. Horrid play calling there.

Rich

MD Longhorn · #2 (**permalink**) Wed Oct 29, 2003, 11:47am

It's the standing at a 45 degree angle that would have drawn the flag from me (depending on the age group). If I have a guy lining up too close (head in front of the center's butt), he's a lineman, and I don't blow it. If same player is lined up sideways or angled, it's illegal. We've occasionally had the flag for that same player (lined up forward, but technically on the line) taking a forward handoff. Usually in PeeWee - but that's where the kids need to learn to lineup anyway.

jrfath · #3 (**permalink**) Wed Oct 29, 2003, 12:04pm

My only question is...was this a repetitive formation, and did you try to talk to the coach/player before you flagged them, letting them know how the slot back was lining up was an illegal formation? Or did you flag him the first time he lined up illegally?

As you know, preventive officiating works well in situations like this. The slot back in "no-mans-land" most likely was not gaining an advantage lining up like this. And he probably did not know he was lining up illegally.

If he lines up illegally 2 or 3 times, tell the player. He does it again, then flag him. I like to tell the coach too, so he can instruct his player, and the coach will not be surprised by the flag either.

Just my two cents.

MD Longhorn · #4 (**permalink**) Wed Oct 29, 2003, 12:09pm

That's part of why I put "depending on the age group". SubV or PW they will often get a warning as long as what they did didn't draw an advantage. And I do typically warn both the player and the coach, and even ask the coach to come stand by me (assuming the coach is a civil one most of the time) to see what I'm seeing, so he can get his kid properly lined up.

Rich · #5 (**permalink**) Wed Oct 29, 2003, 12:22pm

This was a varsity high school state playoff game. I was and am of the position that it warranted a flag. But I'm listening to any and all attempts to change my mind

Rich

sm_bbcoach · #6 (**permalink**) Wed Oct 29, 2003, 01:08pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
This was a varsity high school state playoff game. I was and am of the position that it warranted a flag. But I'm listening to any and all attempts to change my mind

Rich

I agree wiht your call, and explanation. But as the WH,(former wing) I remind our officials to talk players out of 5 penalities. This is one that i would have said to talk them out of. I know it is varsity, but the first time, you tell the player & coach about it. This lets coach & player know. As stated, he did NOT gian an advantage on the play. Even varsity games, give players where there is NO advantage gained an oppurtunity to learn the game. As I continue to officiate, I am finding that varsity players do not know the "simple fundementals" of the game, not the rules. USe this as a teaching experience. I have had so many more coaches thank me for using this strategy than have jumped me.

If I have a coach who gets on me about this call (opposing coach), I will simply ask them these 2 questions: Is there a bhuge advantage gained? 2) Would you want me to call this petty call on one of your players? Mostof the time the answer is no, thanks. Did have one who ranted and raved about got it back the very next series. I "missed"/did not call a line up in the NZ by the CB's crown of the helmet (he was next to the DE). I told player and sent word to coach via other wing. Did not happen again whole game. Coach was very thankful. Coach on my sideline began. I asked 2 questions, he said hell yea! Next series, his Cb walked up to the line, and stuck his helmet in the NZ> I am saying back off, his coach is yelling back off. He does not. He had no advantage by doing this. So due to our conversation I flagged it. Coachnow pissed at his player, not me. About 2 plays later, he came up to me and said" I change my answer. Talk to the players first please, ,with a smile".
Long drawn out post to say talking/preventing officiation can make the world of difference.
Thanks for the chance to give my piece.

MD Longhorn · #7 (**permalink**) Wed Oct 29, 2003, 01:59pm

I would have flagged this as you did in a varsity game. Yes - kids are still learning at this level, but where to line up should not be one of those things anymore once they are at V.

kentref · #8 (**permalink**) Wed Oct 29, 2003, 08:31pm

When you're thinking about "advantage/disadvantage" based on where the player lines up, keep in mind that as a defensive safety or other defender not on the line of scrimmage, that slotback lined up at an angle looks like a back (i.e. eligible receiver). The fact that the slot lined up at an angle draws a flag at the varsity level (also keeping in mind that this is at the end of the season in a playoff game).

If the same had happened in a lower level game or even earlier in the season at the varsity level I probably would have talked to the player the first time it happened. After that he gets a flag.

chris s · #9 (**permalink**) Wed Oct 29, 2003, 08:46pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
This was a varsity high school state playoff game. I was and am of the position that it warranted a flag. But I'm listening to any and all attempts to change my mind

Rich

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!
You won't get any "mind-change persuasion" from me!!! HS playoffs, we are still a month away, but if a varsity kid can't get lined up properly, I'll bang him. We were told prior to the season to just tap leg as to location of "on" for varsity and help out the sub v and little kids. Sometimes I see the pop-warner kids lining up better than some of the hs kids.....go figure

Warrenkicker · #10 (**permalink**) Wed Oct 29, 2003, 10:47pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
#20 was lined up in a slot position -- he intended to be a back, but he was just way too far forward. Half of him was hidden by the end. He also turned inward -- at about a 45 degree angle.

I flagged this as an illegal formation. #20 was not approximately parallel to the line of scrimmage, so he wasn't legally lined up as a lineman. He wasn't far enough back to be a back.

He was in no-man's land. Good call. If they aren't getting lined up in a playoff game makes you wonder if they just haven't been getting it called all season or maybe they were just a not very good team. Your other wing has to know what the call for a player in no-man's land is and how to explain it. That is all you should of told him and he should have been able to convey what happened.

dumbref · #11 (**permalink**) Thu Oct 30, 2003, 03:58pm

Don't get me wrong, I am for all the preventive officiating we can perform. But this one can get messy in a hurry. If he goes down field, there is another foul for ineligible. If he catches the ball OPI. If you do not have the first flag - you better not have the last one!

don16954 · #12 (**permalink**) Thu Oct 30, 2003, 04:36pm

Our varsity crew had this happen twice this year. Early in the season we had a WR covering the slot back, who was suppose to be in the back field. He was on the line however, and almost facing the center at the snap. First time our HL advised him and the coach to correct the problem, either he was on the line of scrimmage meaning he had to be parallel to the opponent's goal line or he needed to line up all the way in the back field. About three plays later he lined he same way and our HL flagged him for illegal allignment/procedure.

Last week in the last game of the season at Belleville and a vital one for both teams as they were bidding for a playoff spot, the WR started on the line not facing the goal line. Our HL flagged him immediatley feeling that this is week 9 at the varsity level in a game which if lost by visiting team would greatly change the playoff picture. Our intent was similiar to the pregame sportsmanship talk. The teams have been out here for nine weeks now and should know what the rules are, both sportsmanship and game.

As always, it is a judgment call on what to do and somebody is going to be upset, so call what you believe is best to avoid allowing an advantage to occur.