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Texas Aggie Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:05pm

Quote:

I do not think you understand. We do not have 4 footballs per team. We have one. We have one that is used the entire game unless there is bad weather.
What I'm not understanding is how this will be any different for you than it is now? How many plays do you have that the ball ends up incomplete on the other team's sideline? A few, right? So, now, you go get the ball, reset, and blow the ready. Under the new rule you do the same thing.

What's the issue?

The 40 second clock doesn't solve every problem but it also doesn't create a problem where none existed. You'll see the benefits on plays other than the ones you described.

JRutledge Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:57pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie (Post 1033269)
What I'm not understanding is how this will be any different for you than it is now? How many plays do you have that the ball ends up incomplete on the other team's sideline? A few, right? So, now, you go get the ball, reset, and blow the ready. Under the new rule you do the same thing.

What's the issue?

I do not see what is so special about the 40-second clock, but I digress. Since you asked, there is a possibility that it will take longer than 20 seconds or so to get the ball in play on certain kinds of plays. These are high school kids, they are not always very well taught or even instructed what to do with the ball well after a play. Combined with the fact that we will not likely have a clock on the field or visible to judge. I see many stoppages or resets to make this right multiple times during a game. If we have to do that at the small college level where we actually have ball boys and multiple football from each team on each sideline, we have issues there. At least with the old rule we are not rushing because the clock is running to get the ball in play. Now we have that as an issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie (Post 1033269)
The 40 second clock doesn't solve every problem but it also doesn't create a problem where none existed. You'll see the benefits on plays other than the ones you described.

I did not say is solved any issues, to me, it created one (or two). Again, not seeing how I will see anything differently if we have issues at the higher levels that have an entire system or policies to make things run smoothly and we still have issues with things in place. This is like when people try to advocate for a shot clock in basketball at the high school level, but do not seem to realize how many times we have to correct things at the college level with the shot clock. To me this just created issues that were not there before. Again you do not have to agree, been doing this for some time to have an opinion on what works and what does not. As a white hat, I know what issues we sometimes have to get the ball in play before. This rule does not automatically solve anything.

Peace

bisonlj Fri Jun 07, 2019 09:39am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1033274)
I do not see what is so special about the 40-second clock, but I digress. Since you asked, there is a possibility that it will take longer than 20 seconds or so to get the ball in play on certain kinds of plays. These are high school kids, they are not always very well taught or even instructed what to do with the ball well after a play. Combined with the fact that we will not likely have a clock on the field or visible to judge. I see many stoppages or resets to make this right multiple times during a game. If we have to do that at the small college level where we actually have ball boys and multiple football from each team on each sideline, we have issues there. At least with the old rule we are not rushing because the clock is running to get the ball in play. Now we have that as an issue.



I did not say is solved any issues, to me, it created one (or two). Again, not seeing how I will see anything differently if we have issues at the higher levels that have an entire system or policies to make things run smoothly and we still have issues with things in place. This is like when people try to advocate for a shot clock in basketball at the high school level, but do not seem to realize how many times we have to correct things at the college level with the shot clock. To me this just created issues that were not there before. Again you do not have to agree, been doing this for some time to have an opinion on what works and what does not. As a white hat, I know what issues we sometimes have to get the ball in play before. This rule does not automatically solve anything.

Peace

I know several people who work in the D3 league where you work so I asked them about this. They have a vastly different experience on having to reset the play clock. Like our D3 conference it happens once or twice per season at most.

JRutledge Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bisonlj (Post 1033289)
I know several people who work in the D3 league where you work so I asked them about this. They have a vastly different experience on having to reset the play clock. Like our D3 conference it happens once or twice per season at most.

I am glad you asked people what has happened in my games, but last year we had several times a game to reset the clock on after plays or change the clock after plays (they set it to 25 instead as an example). It is a constant thing at the D3 level. I am a person that often talks to the people that run the clock and we constantly have to fix, change or alter the clock in those games. Once or twice a season is laughable. It is not unusual to have someone that it is their first time ever to run the play clock as well at that level. It is such a discusssion on crews that we know the places that struggle and we have to address how we will handle those situations.

And none of this matters because the rules at the NCAA has built-in remedies for issues for the play clock, where the NF rule at this time does not at this time. Every NCAA game we have a visible play clock and I know we will not have that at the high schools I will work this coming season. Two completely different concerns and that is not going to make me say this was a great change. I see nothing that makes this better. HS we play a shorter game anyway and not unusual to have a running clock during games.

Peace

Rich Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:31pm

We typically have 2 balls on each sideline and I can't remember a single time we'd have had to stop the play clock (with the 40) and reset.

This is a non-issue if officials know when to get the second ball from the ball boy.

And if you only have one ball in a game.....I don't know what to say. We don't work freshman games where there's only one football per team.

JRutledge Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:45pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 1033295)
And if you only have one ball in a game.....I don't know what to say. We don't work freshman games where there's only one football per team.

Well, we do. The only time might be if we have weather issues and teams want to use multiple balls. But again, they have some coach's kid or some injured player that is bringing in the ball. Recognize I said, some coach's kid. That is not an adult or in many cases, not someone that is paying attention to the actual game. Also it is often when they do not even have the football and they have to go looking for it just during a change of possession (where it happens most of the time BTW) And it has been like that my entire 20 plus year career at the high school level no matter the kind of game, 1st through semifinal and even the State Finals. All games have the same basic situation.

Peace

bisonlj Fri Jun 07, 2019 04:05pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1033296)
Well, we do. The only time might be if we have weather issues and teams want to use multiple balls. But again, they have some coach's kid or some injured player that is bringing in the ball. Recognize I said, some coach's kid. That is not an adult or in many cases, not someone that is paying attention to the actual game. Also it is often when they do not even have the football and they have to go looking for it just during a change of possession (where it happens most of the time BTW) And it has been like that my entire 20 plus year career at the high school level no matter the kind of game, 1st through semifinal and even the State Finals. All games have the same basic situation.

Peace

Also interesting because those are the same people serving as ball boys in our HS games (usually the 10-14 year old son of a coach and his buddies) and they don't have major issues doing it. They are far from perfect and we sometimes have to yell at them because they aren't where they are supposed to be or paying attention but they generally do an adequate job to keep the game flowing.

We almost always check at least 3-4 balls from each team. I know your schools have them if needed. They just need someone (IHSA would be better than the officials) to request multiple balls checked so ball mechanics can be done efficiently. You could live with 2 but 3 or 4 is definitely better. It's not rocket science and most other states seem to do it that way. I know this one is beyond your control.

JRutledge Sat Jun 08, 2019 10:43am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bisonlj (Post 1033304)
Also interesting because those are the same people serving as ball boys in our HS games (usually the 10-14 year old son of a coach and his buddies) and they don't have major issues doing it. They are far from perfect and we sometimes have to yell at them because they aren't where they are supposed to be or paying attention but they generally do an adequate job to keep the game flowing.

All I am saying is the rule will be a little more difficult if we do not have a system in place to get more help in this area. Coaches will complain, but I will tell them the truth. That truth is that we need more than one football at times to get the ball set and ready to go consistently. And we do not have a field clock and you will have to keep that in mind. A couple of penalties will make that overall point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bisonlj (Post 1033304)
We almost always check at least 3-4 balls from each team. I know your schools have them if needed. They just need someone (IHSA would be better than the officials) to request multiple balls checked so ball mechanics can be done efficiently. You could live with 2 but 3 or 4 is definitely better. It's not rocket science and most other states seem to do it that way. I know this one is beyond your control.

You are given more footballs than we are given. Usually, 1 and sometimes 2 when they try to tell us "This is the kicking ball." Otherwise, they have one they use or we use what they bring to us when they come to the field. As I said my issue is not that they have more football, the issue is what is the system to allow us to put the ball in play in adequate time. If you are using one football and we have a long gain or the ball is on the track, then are we set up for some failure to apply this rule consistently? I just do not see how this rule makes things "better." It is an opinion. I might change my mind down the road, but I see nothing that changes the game for the better because we have a 40-second clock. And as I have said before, I bet there will be holes in what we do, unlike the NCAA that has all kinds of procedures to apply the rule. The NF love to take one part of a rule and not make it clear how we apply it in specific situations.

Peace

Robert Goodman Sun Jun 09, 2019 09:05pm

Remember where this method of starting the play clock began? It was in the WLAF in 1991, which means the NFL was using it to experiment with.

What was the problem they were seeking to address? Variation of the amount of time a team that wanted to exhaust the period clock would have, due to variation in the amount of time officials took to ready the ball after a running play -- which for pro football wasn't much variation.

The amount of time a team that wanted to bleed off the clock could would differ only between plays that ended with a ballcarrier's going down bounds. When the period clock was running, the team on defense could delay the RFP a little by being slightly uncooperative to a degree the officials would not stop the clock. But if the offense wanted to hurry up, having a fixed amount of time between downs with the clock running did not help against such tactics by the defense. It helped only if the team on offense wanted to consume time and the officials were slow, and only when the preceding play left the clock running.

The amount of time the WLAF used at first for this, 35 seconds, produced a pace that was slightly faster than even Canadian football's and was difficult for offenses to use any plays where they had to get a good pre-snap look at the defense or to signal anything complicated, so the NFL never adopted that short a time; when they finally did adopt such a procedure, they made it 45 seconds, which proved in a few years to be a lavish amount of time for them.

bisonlj Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:20pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman (Post 1033321)
Remember where this method of starting the play clock began? It was in the WLAF in 1991, which means the NFL was using it to experiment with.

What was the problem they were seeking to address? Variation of the amount of time a team that wanted to exhaust the period clock would have, due to variation in the amount of time officials took to ready the ball after a running play -- which for pro football wasn't much variation.

The amount of time a team that wanted to bleed off the clock could would differ only between plays that ended with a ballcarrier's going down bounds. When the period clock was running, the team on defense could delay the RFP a little by being slightly uncooperative to a degree the officials would not stop the clock. But if the offense wanted to hurry up, having a fixed amount of time between downs with the clock running did not help against such tactics by the defense. It helped only if the team on offense wanted to consume time and the officials were slow, and only when the preceding play left the clock running.

The amount of time the WLAF used at first for this, 35 seconds, produced a pace that was slightly faster than even Canadian football's and was difficult for offenses to use any plays where they had to get a good pre-snap look at the defense or to signal anything complicated, so the NFL never adopted that short a time; when they finally did adopt such a procedure, they made it 45 seconds, which proved in a few years to be a lavish amount of time for them.

This is definitely a positive impact of the rule change. We saw it in NCAA when we implemented it and in our NFHS experiment. The other factor is plays where the run ended near the umpire and he spots it quickly. This could result in a dead ball period of less than 40 seconds. Plus it nearly guarantees consistent crew to crew and play to play within games.


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