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CT1 Fri Feb 15, 2019 08:00am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman (Post 1030296)
I understand that, but why should that be a foul? Why do they require a minimum # of 50-79 instead of a maximum # of 1-49 & 80-99? If they changed from a min. on the line to a max in the backfield, wouldn't it make sense to make the same type of change to the numbering requirements?

I believe its to allow the defense to easily identify the eligible receivers.

Robert Goodman Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:25am

Quote:

Originally Posted by CT1 (Post 1030323)
I believe it’s to allow the defense to easily identify the eligible receivers.

The eligible receivers would have eligible receiver #s either way, so what difference would it make to them whether there were a maximum limit of them rather than a minimum limit of ineligible ones?

I'll go farther than that. Actually it would make a difference to the defense in some cases identifying eligible receivers -- an improvement. What happens if team A lines up in an 8-player front, with both the ends & an interior lineman wearing eligible nos.? The receiver would be eligible by #, ineligible by position, which is a headache for both the officials & the defense. Putting a max on the no. of eligible #s on the OL would preclude that scenario, making it illegal to snap in that formation. It wouldn't preclude all scenarios like that, because they can still line up "end over" or in some other ways having one of the eligible #s interior, sacrificing an eligible receiver, but it would at least take away this one case.

ajmc Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:01pm

How much endless nit-picking and pure speculation do we need to endure to satisfy EVERY imaginative possibility that this rule adjustments amounts to, "Much ado about nothing".

Unfortunately, it's likely that those inclined to find some unique niche, that they think will give them some creative advantage, will keep searching, creating situations that will depend on the common sense and "spirit of good sportsmanship" of Referees to resolve.

Thankfully, NFHS 1-1-6 remains intact and unchanged.

Rich Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajmc (Post 1030333)
How much endless nit-picking and pure speculation do we need to endure to satisfy EVERY imaginative possibility that this rule adjustments amounts to, "Much ado about nothing".



Unfortunately, it's likely that those inclined to find some unique niche, that they think will give them some creative advantage, will keep searching, creating situations that will depend on the common sense and "spirit of good sportsmanship" of Referees to resolve.



Thankfully, NFHS 1-1-6 remains intact and unchanged.



You are wrong.

(1) Wings only need to count backs. No need to see if there are 10 or 12 on the field.

(2) When there are 10, there will be fewer penalties that did nothing but hurt an already shorthanded team and interrupted the game.

This is a big change, but not worth agonizing over. There I'll agree.


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CT1 Sat Feb 16, 2019 08:08am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 1030334)
You are wrong.

(1) Wings only need to count backs. No need to see if there are 10 or 12 on the field.

(2) When there are 10, there will be fewer penalties that did nothing but hurt an already shorthanded team and interrupted the game.

This is a big change, but not worth agonizing over. There I'll agree.


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Im hoping you meant 10 or 11.

Rich Sat Feb 16, 2019 09:16am

Quote:

Originally Posted by CT1 (Post 1030381)
Im hoping you meant 10 or 11.



I meant 12. R and U count the offense.


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bisonlj Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:04am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1030094)
I still have questions. Is this a case where the NF took on a college rule without the actual guidance of all the little things that come up with this rule. Like what is going to happen if we cannot put the ball in play at a certain time? What signals do we give if we are resetting the shot clock? Are there going to be ball boy strategies for this newer policy?

Even at the small college level, we have problems with this being done right. I see this even more so at the high school level as well.

Peace

I've been using a 40-second play clock for most of my college career (11 years) and the last 3 years as an experimental state. We have very few problems with the play clock because it's a 40/25 clock rather than a 25 clock. Issues are only with an incompetent clock operator. I've found the 40/25 to be easier because the play clock guy generally only has to start it at the end of a play. With a 25 he has to find the R and follow him for when he somewhat randomly will start it. I would venture to guess we've had fewer issues starting the 40 than the 20. Like NCAA there will be provisions for resetting the play clock if it falls below a certain point. That's generally unncessary because whether we have the ball ready at 35 or 18 has no impact on the offense doing their subs or play calling. It may affect how FAST they can go, but they aren't worried about the back end of the play clock anyway if they are trying to go fast. I can probably count on one hand the number of times we've had to reset the play clock during a season in either level. For the most part just use common sense if we've caused a delay (including delays by the ball boys) that could negative impact the offense's ability to get a play off before the play clock expires.

Our experiment allowed us to request balls for both teams on both sides to be help with ball mechanics. Our crew did that every week unless the coach protested. That happened once or twice each season. It messed us up only because we had a much better rhythm the other way. But we still didn't have any issues getting a ball ready in plenty of time. It was just more running for the U back and forth between some plays. I know some states don't allow ANY changing of balls during a drive and chase down every incomplete pass. I would recommend that mechanic change if you are doing that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman (Post 1030130)
Thanks.

You'd think the article might've summarized the "thorough discussion" that led up to the 40 sec. Seems to me that if 25 secs. (or any specified amount of time) from the RFP is good for the situations it's going to be used in, it should be good for all situations. I'd like to know what the argument is for the variation, which seems just one more chance to goof.

I'm guessing the effect on the game, other than making its administr'n a tiny bit harder, will be a slight one allowing the team on offense to take a little more tiime off the period clock, since if it ever took significantly more than 15 sec. to ready the ball for play, the officials would take a time out, so it'll never reduce the time available to play the ball.

Several states have been experimenting with this for 2-3 years and many HS officials also work college where this is very similar. There is actually one LESS chance for a goof with the 40 second play clock because the R doesn't have to start it any longer between most plays. It's already running. Now he can worry about other dead ball officiating responsibilities.

The key benefit to this rule is the CONSISTENCY from dead ball to delay of game. If you actually timed it, the normal range was probably 12-15 seconds but for various reasons it could vary from 7 seconds to 25 seconds. That meant some plays the offense had 32 seconds to get their next play called and run and other times it was 50 seconds. Even with a good crew and a consistent pace it probably varied 5-8 seconds throughout the game. With a 40-second play clock that is one.

The situations where you still use 25 seconds, it's because you are administering something that normally takes an extended period of time (i.e. penalty administration, team time out, injury, change of possession) so even if you did start a 40 it would run out before you were done with any of that.

This doesn't affect the length much at all. If you had a crew that took forever to start the play clock when the game clock is stopped (thus extending the amount of time it takes to complete the game) you will have as many times where they killed more time for the same reason. We haven't found the length of games to be much different. The only possible impact is at the end of blowouts when you are milking as much clock before the RFP is blown you may extend a game 3-5 minutes. We often tell our play clock operators to wait a couple extra seconds before starting the 40 also. If you don't have visible play clocks you have more flexibility keeping it on the field. Nobody is going to care if you are allowing 40 or 60 seconds in that situation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SE Minnestoa Re (Post 1030175)
Without play clocks at any of the schools we work at, I think the back judge is going to have his hands full with two different lengths of clocks to keep. 40 seconds for typical plays--25 seconds for special plays. I don't think most watches keep two saved alarms.

A lot of coaches who want their quarterbacks to come to the sideline every play are going to be surprised how quick 40 seconds is from the end of the play.

Colorado is one of the states that experimented with visible play clocks and it was a big success there as well. It's not as big an issue as many expect.

As for getting used to a "faster" pace, if the crew was doing a good job and being consistent the timing was probably 38-42 seconds already so it won't be that big of an adjustment. I heard we had referees that would allow the QB to go to the sideline, get the play, return to the huddle, call the play and then start the RFP when the huddle broke. If you had crews doing that, then yes there will be adjustment. We still have QBs going to the sideline to get plays and having no issues getting the ball snapped. 40 seconds is still a lot of time to do all that if that's how you want to run your offense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1030233)
Exactly. They were overthinking this and could have just used the wording of the NCAA, but we know the NF is pained to take anything directly from the NCAA level and just go with it from there. They had to require something that would kind of be impossible. The only way you could have 5 on the line and 4 in the backfield is if you have 9 players on the field and that would cause other issues on a scrimmage kick for the kicking team.

Peace

I had the opportunity to speak with a rules committee person before the meeting and they mentioned the proposal included the "at least 5 on the line." I told them that was unnecessary since there is already a rule requiring that and it will only cause confusion. They kept it there so everyone would remember that even though they are removing the requirement for 7 that you still had a requirement of 5. Since it's been announced there has been a ton of confusion as I expected.

Don't make this any more complicated than it is. The rule now just matches the way most of us have officiated it. It's hard for wings to see if they have 7 linemen (or 3 on their side of the snapper) because they are lined up in a straight line from their view. Since I started nearly 20 years ago, we've been taught to look for 4 in the backfield assuming there were 11 on the field. If the R/U signaled there were only 10 then we would make sure there were only 3 in the backfield. Now they don't have to worry at all how many are on the field. As long as there are fewer than 5 in the backfield they are good with formation. The U will still verify the 5 linemen numbered 50-79.

Teams very rarely sub out interior linemen during a series so the missing player is not often a lineman. They maybe are in a scrimmage kick formation but there exceptions at play there already.

This was a long overdo rule change that simply syncs up with what most crews have been doing for decades and removes what was a silly foul when it had to be called.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 1030334)
You are wrong.

(1) Wings only need to count backs. No need to see if there are 10 or 12 on the field.

(2) When there are 10, there will be fewer penalties that did nothing but hurt an already shorthanded team and interrupted the game.

This is a big change, but not worth agonizing over. There I'll agree.
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As I stated above I would argue it's really a change at all. It's just matching up the way most crews have been determining it for years. If you were an area still doing the multiple signals for balanced/unbalanced line you are going to look back during the season and wonder, "why the hell were we still doing that? This is so much more logical."

This is definitely the best set of rule changes we've had in years. They are all common changes that make our jobs easier and help with the flow of the game. Other than the confusion over the minimum of 5 on the line being included unnecessarily I think they did a great job!

JRutledge Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:39am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bisonlj (Post 1030387)
I've been using a 40-second play clock for most of my college career (11 years) and the last 3 years as an experimental state. We have very few problems with the play clock because it's a 40/25 clock rather than a 25 clock. Issues are only with an incompetent clock operator. I've found the 40/25 to be easier because the play clock guy generally only has to start it at the end of a play. With a 25 he has to find the R and follow him for when he somewhat randomly will start it. I would venture to guess we've had fewer issues starting the 40 than the 20. Like NCAA there will be provisions for resetting the play clock if it falls below a certain point. That's generally unncessary because whether we have the ball ready at 35 or 18 has no impact on the offense doing their subs or play calling. It may affect how FAST they can go, but they aren't worried about the back end of the play clock anyway if they are trying to go fast. I can probably count on one hand the number of times we've had to reset the play clock during a season in either level. For the most part just use common sense if we've caused a delay (including delays by the ball boys) that could negative impact the offense's ability to get a play off before the play clock expires.

Our experiment allowed us to request balls for both teams on both sides to be help with ball mechanics. Our crew did that every week unless the coach protested. That happened once or twice each season. It messed us up only because we had a much better rhythm the other way. But we still didn't have any issues getting a ball ready in plenty of time. It was just more running for the U back and forth between some plays. I know some states don't allow ANY changing of balls during a drive and chase down every incomplete pass. I would recommend that mechanic change if you are doing that.

I have worked college for a rather long time as well and I work Deep Wing or Back Judge most of the time. And very familiar with the procedures used at that level. But we have to struggle a lot with the clock and it is visible on the field. We have almost every week have someone or during the game we either have the wrong time put up or they start it improperly or not at all. All I am saying is that is just when we have it visible, what is going to happen when it is not visible?

I also did not say we had problems getting the ball in play. I said that we do not have ball boys like college. So when there is a deep incomplete pass, they do not have people in place to get another ball and chase the other ball. I can ask them to do this and they would look at us with 5 heads because if the ball goes to the other sideline, are they getting the ball? Nope. We often have a little kid that is bringing out the ball and yes they do not bring out the ball all the time when requested. Even at the college level we have terrible ball boys where we are having to constantly talk to them about when to get us a ball properly.

The bottom line is it is one thing to take on a rule that has all the other procedures in place to make this transition smooth, it is another when you have many procedures missing. That is the concern. I am the crew chief on our crew and I set the tone. Nothing I say is going to automatically make this easier because I ask the teams to do something when they are not prepared to accommodate or they have never heard what I am asking. And most of all I cannot make any school put up a play clock on the field because I said so. I was a two-time State Final Back Judge as well, we often had issues with teams getting read before the clock when we would never have a single game other than the State Finals with a play clock. I did not say issues as a crew, my mechanics or routine was the same, but there were still teams not aware of how quickly that time runs.

Peace

bisonlj Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:04am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1030388)
I have worked college for a rather long time as well and I work Deep Wing or Back Judge most of the time. And very familiar with the procedures used at that level. But we have to struggle a lot with the clock and it is visible on the field. We have almost every week have someone or during the game we either have the wrong time put up or they start it improperly or not at all. All I am saying is that is just when we have it visible, what is going to happen when it is not visible?

I also did not say we had problems getting the ball in play. I said that we do not have ball boys like college. So when there is a deep incomplete pass, they do not have people in place to get another ball and chase the other ball. I can ask them to do this and they would look at us with 5 heads because if the ball goes to the other sideline, are they getting the ball? Nope. We often have a little kid that is bringing out the ball and yes they do not bring out the ball all the time when requested. Even at the college level we have terrible ball boys where we are having to constantly talk to them about when to get us a ball properly.

The bottom line is it is one thing to take on a rule that has all the other procedures in place to make this transition smooth, it is another when you have many procedures missing. That is the concern. I am the crew chief on our crew and I set the tone. Nothing I say is going to automatically make this easier because I ask the teams to do something when they are not prepared to accommodate or they have never heard what I am asking. And most of all I cannot make any school put up a play clock on the field because I said so. I was a two-time State Final Back Judge as well, we often had issues with teams getting read before the clock when we would never have a single game other than the State Finals with a play clock. I did not say issues as a crew, my mechanics or routine was the same, but there were still teams not aware of how quickly that time runs.

Peace

Those are all issues that have nothing to do with either play clock rule. Sounds like you have issues no matter what you do. This rule changes makes them no worse and may help you make them better. Use the rule as a reason to get them to do fairly standard ball mechanics or find someone else to do it. This really isn't that difficult.

CT1 Sun Feb 17, 2019 08:21am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 1030386)
I meant 12. R and U count the offense.

Not here. Wing always counts his team, whether O or D. R counts O, BJ counts D, U counts 50-79.

Rich Sun Feb 17, 2019 08:24am

Quote:

Originally Posted by CT1 (Post 1030407)
Not here. Wing always counts his team, whether O or D. R counts O, BJ counts D, U counts 50-79.


Where I'm from:

R and U count offense. Both look for numbering issues.
B and L count defense.
H helps count defense, but primarily deals with the chains.


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JRutledge Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:27am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bisonlj (Post 1030403)
Those are all issues that have nothing to do with either play clock rule. Sounds like you have issues no matter what you do. This rule changes makes them no worse and may help you make them better. Use the rule as a reason to get them to do fairly standard ball mechanics or find someone else to do it. This really isn't that difficult.

Again, not sure what you are saying here. What problem that I am having? I did not realize my position was about me personally.

I said that we do not have a ball boy system like college or there is no requirement in this area (and I have worked all over the state) where there are ball boys to facilitate bringing the ball into the game like they do at the NCAA level. We have issues at times with wet ball mechanics when we tell the teams they can bring in a new ball every single play because they give that responsibility to some kid (sometimes a very little kid) that is not paying attention. I have worked on the biggest stage in the state and we had the same "one ball" system used in those games too, but at least we do not start the RFP or play clock until we set the ball down for the next play. Now if the ball is passed onto the track and way out of bounds or in the stands, we either had to get that ball that was thrown there back on the field or we have no one prepared to bring in a new ball like you would in a college or pro game. So unless we have a different rule than the NCAA rule, incomplete passes still have a 40-second clock after the play is over. It is pretty easy to get the next ball on the field when we have ball boys on each sidelines with both teams balls in their hand. Not the case in this state or region of the state I normally work. It might take more than 20 seconds to get the ball in play on long incomplete passes in some cases along with the back judge or other officials trying to case down the ball instead of consentrating on where the play clock is at the time. Coaches get upset about all kinds of stupid things, this will cause conflict if there is no play clock visable to everyone, especially near the end of a half. And when you do not have a visible clock or it takes time to get the ball down because of this reality, it might cause some issues if coaches and players are not aware of where the clock is at during those plays. If we have those issues during a 25-second clock that was not visible, you think this might be a problem during the current rule? Yes, I think that could be a problem at certain times during a game. When we had malfunctions or clock started at the wrong time in a college game, it was so that everyone could see the clock on some level. Now we do not have many fields with visible play clocks on the field. It is a problem here when officials keep the game clock on the field and there are complaining about the time of games, so why would the play clock not be an issue? And again, I am not talking about me having the issue, I am talking about the situation. That is why I do not like to work lower level games without a game clock because it eliminates the debating over what can be seen.

When everybody gets a visible play clock at their fields, many of these issues will go away other than the possible mistakes made by the person running the clock. But until then, I think this has some situations we will have to deal with every game. We have to deal with play clock issues when there are NCAA games, so why is this going to be utopia?

As a basketball official where we have a shot clock, that is an issue at the NCAA or NAIA level, so not sure why we think this rule change will not have any issues for a while if other levels have issues with who is running those devices. NCAA Men's basketball changes even a few rules about when, and where the clock is set a few years ago and we are constantly having to make corrections to make sure the rule is followed. It is better a few years out, but when the rules changed, it was constant issues or debate.

Peace

HLin NC Sun Feb 17, 2019 02:27pm

For those of you who claim to have some all-powerful ball boy policy where they are all over the age of 18, work both sides of the field, attentive, and work like demons to keep a new, dry ball in play- I raise my glass to you.

For those of us dealing with 10 year old sons of the coaches, who would rather be hanging with their buds at the c-stand, who look at me like I'm an alien being when I ask if they brought a towel, who when I call "BALL, please" either ignore me or chuck it 10 yards over my head- I'll lay good money down that there are more of us than there are of you.

ajmc Sun Feb 17, 2019 07:35pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by HLin NC (Post 1030429)
For those of us dealing with 10 year old sons of the coaches, who would rather be hanging with their buds at the c-stand, who look at me like I'm an alien being when I ask if they brought a towel, who when I call "BALL, please" either ignore me or chuck it 10 yards over my head- I'll lay good money down that there are more of us than there are of you.

AMEN, "Reality" is often a lot more cumbersome than, the way we'd like things to be.

bisonlj Mon Feb 18, 2019 02:32pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1030420)
Again, not sure what you are saying here. What problem that I am having? I did not realize my position was about me personally.

I said that we do not have a ball boy system like college or there is no requirement in this area (and I have worked all over the state) where there are ball boys to facilitate bringing the ball into the game like they do at the NCAA level. We have issues at times with wet ball mechanics when we tell the teams they can bring in a new ball every single play because they give that responsibility to some kid (sometimes a very little kid) that is not paying attention. I have worked on the biggest stage in the state and we had the same "one ball" system used in those games too, but at least we do not start the RFP or play clock until we set the ball down for the next play. Now if the ball is passed onto the track and way out of bounds or in the stands, we either had to get that ball that was thrown there back on the field or we have no one prepared to bring in a new ball like you would in a college or pro game. So unless we have a different rule than the NCAA rule, incomplete passes still have a 40-second clock after the play is over. It is pretty easy to get the next ball on the field when we have ball boys on each sidelines with both teams balls in their hand. Not the case in this state or region of the state I normally work. It might take more than 20 seconds to get the ball in play on long incomplete passes in some cases along with the back judge or other officials trying to case down the ball instead of consentrating on where the play clock is at the time. Coaches get upset about all kinds of stupid things, this will cause conflict if there is no play clock visable to everyone, especially near the end of a half. And when you do not have a visible clock or it takes time to get the ball down because of this reality, it might cause some issues if coaches and players are not aware of where the clock is at during those plays. If we have those issues during a 25-second clock that was not visible, you think this might be a problem during the current rule? Yes, I think that could be a problem at certain times during a game. When we had malfunctions or clock started at the wrong time in a college game, it was so that everyone could see the clock on some level. Now we do not have many fields with visible play clocks on the field. It is a problem here when officials keep the game clock on the field and there are complaining about the time of games, so why would the play clock not be an issue? And again, I am not talking about me having the issue, I am talking about the situation. That is why I do not like to work lower level games without a game clock because it eliminates the debating over what can be seen.

When everybody gets a visible play clock at their fields, many of these issues will go away other than the possible mistakes made by the person running the clock. But until then, I think this has some situations we will have to deal with every game. We have to deal with play clock issues when there are NCAA games, so why is this going to be utopia?

As a basketball official where we have a shot clock, that is an issue at the NCAA or NAIA level, so not sure why we think this rule change will not have any issues for a while if other levels have issues with who is running those devices. NCAA Men's basketball changes even a few rules about when, and where the clock is set a few years ago and we are constantly having to make corrections to make sure the rule is followed. It is better a few years out, but when the rules changed, it was constant issues or debate.

Peace

I'm sorry JRut. I wasn't saying YOU were having a problem here. I'm saying the problem is not related to either play clock. It's related to how you area apparently has to do ball mechanics. It's very possible you can't influence that at all, but I would be surprised if you or the state can't.

Our ball boys are also often 10-14 year old boys who are sons of the coaches. I'm sure there are variations in expectations from crew to crew, but the ball boys we work with generally are on the ball. Any delay in getting a ball may result in the new ball being placed with 22 seconds rather than 28 seconds, but none of that affects the ability of the offense to do their subs, call their plays and get it snapped in 40 seconds. Yes it affects the team who wants to go fast because they are waiting for the ball to get spotted, but they aren't going to worry about the end of the play clock because they want to snap the ball ASAP. And they have to wait just as long regardless of 40 or 25.

Hopefully you get support from the state or your associations for having ball boys to be alert. If not work with the ball boys as best as you can and encourage them to be alert. Often there is an assistant coach who is responsible for the ball boys so work with him. Worst case your back judge will likely be helping to fetch the incomplete pass and he can get that ball to you. If the play clock has run down too far then reset it to 25. That happens to us once or twice a year.

Good luck!


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