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  #46 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 18, 2019, 04:10pm
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Originally Posted by bisonlj View Post
I'm sorry JRut. I wasn't saying YOU were having a problem here. I'm saying the problem is not related to either play clock. It's related to how you area apparently has to do ball mechanics. It's very possible you can't influence that at all, but I would be surprised if you or the state can't.

Our ball boys are also often 10-14 year old boys who are sons of the coaches. I'm sure there are variations in expectations from crew to crew, but the ball boys we work with generally are on the ball. Any delay in getting a ball may result in the new ball being placed with 22 seconds rather than 28 seconds, but none of that affects the ability of the offense to do their subs, call their plays and get it snapped in 40 seconds. Yes it affects the team who wants to go fast because they are waiting for the ball to get spotted, but they aren't going to worry about the end of the play clock because they want to snap the ball ASAP. And they have to wait just as long regardless of 40 or 25.

Hopefully you get support from the state or your associations for having ball boys to be alert. If not work with the ball boys as best as you can and encourage them to be alert. Often there is an assistant coach who is responsible for the ball boys so work with him. Worst case your back judge will likely be helping to fetch the incomplete pass and he can get that ball to you. If the play clock has run down too far then reset it to 25. That happens to us once or twice a year.

Good luck!
I do not think this is just a state issue, it is a conference issue, an area issue. They could suggest they have ball boys but not have the people available (their claim) to do what they are being asked. We have issues during the postseason to get procedures followed to a letter.

Here is my thing, I really do not care either way. It is what it is. Ball boys even at the college level are often bad. We just have a procedure there to make it work a little better and we also have 7 officials as well to make it work. We have 5 right now at the high school level and unless that changes, ball boys would be a luxury and a problem at the same time. Either way, the NF had to know this when they put in the rule that many states do not have visible clocks and certainly does not have ball boys. I will be waiting as I did during before this current basketball season to figure out if they did not consider all the challenges that will occur with a new rule. We will see what happens when everything comes out for real.

Peace
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 18, 2019, 04:50pm
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
I do not think this is just a state issue, it is a conference issue, an area issue. They could suggest they have ball boys but not have the people available (their claim) to do what they are being asked. We have issues during the postseason to get procedures followed to a letter.

Here is my thing, I really do not care either way. It is what it is. Ball boys even at the college level are often bad. We just have a procedure there to make it work a little better and we also have 7 officials as well to make it work. We have 5 right now at the high school level and unless that changes, ball boys would be a luxury and a problem at the same time. Either way, the NF had to know this when they put in the rule that many states do not have visible clocks and certainly does not have ball boys. I will be waiting as I did during before this current basketball season to figure out if they did not consider all the challenges that will occur with a new rule. We will see what happens when everything comes out for real.

Peace
I think it was ultimately 7 states that did this as an experiment last year and a few of us for 2-3 years. There was a mix of states with and without visible play clocks and various levels of ball boys. None of the states I talked with who did it mentioned any issues with ball boys so it worked.

It was such a glowing success the states who did experiment were very concerned they would have to go back. I'm not sure if we would have given up our seat on the rules committee, but it would have definitely been a consideration. I did not speak with one coach or official who didn't love the change. And until our commissioner proposed the experiment 3 years ago I don't believe there was a huge demand for it.

I have a hard time believing your ball boys are that incompetent they can't figure this out. I know several HS and small college officials in Illinois and none of them have raised the concerns you have at either level so I don't expect it to be an issue in your area. I think you will be just fine.
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 18, 2019, 05:18pm
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Originally Posted by bisonlj View Post
I think it was ultimately 7 states that did this as an experiment last year and a few of us for 2-3 years. There was a mix of states with and without visible play clocks and various levels of ball boys. None of the states I talked with who did it mentioned any issues with ball boys so it worked.

It was such a glowing success the states who did experiment were very concerned they would have to go back. I'm not sure if we would have given up our seat on the rules committee, but it would have definitely been a consideration. I did not speak with one coach or official who didn't love the change. And until our commissioner proposed the experiment 3 years ago I don't believe there was a huge demand for it.
If you have figured me out by now, I do not care what other states do. Great, they had no issue with the ball boys. I was just stating it might be a problem in my world or state or where I work games. It is not a tragedy and we will still have to deal with it, but it is just something I noticed with the rule. Again, we have no specifics or if they will take on even most of the NCAA procedures.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bisonlj View Post
I have a hard time believing your ball boys are that incompetent they can't figure this out. I know several HS and small college officials in Illinois and none of them have raised the concerns you have at either level so I don't expect it to be an issue in your area. I think you will be just fine.
You obviously did not really digest what I was saying to you. If all we have is one ball for the entire team for the entire game and we have a long incomplete pass that is nearly at the fence or past the track, we do not have anyone that typically brings us that football and then goes and gets the ball that was just used. It is one thing to have 4 people in the game that are carrying the footballs of both teams and on both sidelines, comparing that to maybe one "kid" that has to bring the footballs during a change or possession. We have had teams that took time to just give us the ball during a normal change of possession and we had a kid that often was not paying attention to the game or did not have the ball in the first place. Often we have the QB or player bring us the ball because the "ball boys" are not affective in doing their job and that is just on change of possessions.

The rule just came out. So I am not so sure you know everyone that might have raised this issue or talked to everyone that implemented the rule. It is a conversation at this point. It does not mean the world is coming to an end. We are months away from any regular meetings about the topic in most areas so I would suspect many people are doing other sports and probably not fixated on football to even raise some issues. It might be nothing in the end. But I have been doing this awhile and rules like the Horsecollar foul or adding PSK or even putting in how fouls are administered after a score, all had issues when the rule came out and took some tweaking to get to where they are today. We have a rules interpreter that tells us every year, "It takes the NF 3 years to get a rule change right." And part of that statement is the frustration of how a rule is added but does not cover the little things that make it run smoothly and either our state or the NF has to come back to clarify something that was not covered properly.

Honestly, I do not think it was necessary. We play fewer minutes in a game and they could have gone back to other rules they once had to speed up the game, like running the clock after a change of possession. We already have mercy rules that speed up games that are out of hand. It is the rule now, but was it so great of a change? No, not to me.

Peace
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 19, 2019, 10:29am
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Considering the :40 sec clock is going to affect the offense the most and it's the offense whose ball has most likely gone out of play to the track or fence, it will be incumbent on them to insure that their ball person(s) are doing their utmost to retrieve it or get another one in play.

I imagine that if there is some inordinate delay, the Referee has the ability to blow it dead and re-set to the :25.

Certainly would seem to be an item that needs to be covered by state offices at the coaches clinics this summer.
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 19, 2019, 12:40pm
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Originally Posted by HLin NC View Post
Considering the :40 sec clock is going to affect the offense the most and it's the offense whose ball has most likely gone out of play to the track or fence, it will be incumbent on them to insure that their ball person(s) are doing their utmost to retrieve it or get another one in play.

I imagine that if there is some inordinate delay, the Referee has the ability to blow it dead and re-set to the :25.

Certainly would seem to be an item that needs to be covered by state offices at the coaches clinics this summer.
That's the way I believe all of the experimental states dealt with it. In 3 years I think I think we reset the play clock maybe 3 or 4 times total. And it was usually some egregious issue or discussion that caused it. An inattentive ball boy maybe delayed us 4 or 5 seconds, but it just meant we got the ball placed with 24 seconds rather than 29 seconds. The offense was still huddled or trying to figure out their formation so it really didn't affect them much. But I'd be shocked if you didn't have the option to pump it back to 25 if you felt you inconvenienced the offense enough they could potentially have a delay of game due to the officials.
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 19, 2019, 02:05pm
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Originally Posted by bisonlj View Post
That's the way I believe all of the experimental states dealt with it. In 3 years I think I think we reset the play clock maybe 3 or 4 times total.
In college games, I remember way more times we had to do this than just 3 or 4 times total and they ran the clock after scores. And again we had ball boys on both sidelines. So let us not make it sound like there is no possibility for issues.

We will just have to deal with the issue. Heck I am good as when these become problems, likely the teams helped cause them.

Peace
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old Fri May 03, 2019, 12:34am
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Been working NCAA rules my entire career -- never worked a game under Fed rules. I'm shocked it took Fed so long to catch up to the 40 second clock. In fact, I think Fed rules in football are obsolete, but that's a different topic for a different time.

I've worked now a couple of hundred or so games under the 40 second clock including subvarsity (HS and jr. high) and on fields without play clocks. For most of our subvarsity, we don't enforce a strict play clock. unless the game situation calls for it (team ahead late has ball, etc.). In fact, we don't even turn on the clock for games on fields where there is a clock.

I always work SV games with a belt timer so I can easily from any position work the 40 by using the hand up (10 seconds) and side count (5 seconds and lower) mechanic. We've used this in varsity games as well on fields that don't have a clock. If (SV) teams are running a good pace, I don't worry about it -- I just time timeouts. For varsity games we do enforce the clock rules and even in situations where there isn't a visible clock, we don't have very many complaints. I can't even remember one, honestly, on a legit delay of game foul. Maybe a question but after we told them when we started it and why, they accept it.

The only times the 40 will really come into play on normal situations are long plays and deep pass incompletions. Good ball mechanics with 4-5 officials SHOULD keep things working OK. If not, just reset and blow the ready. Its no big deal. As a varsity R, not having the blow the ready every play leaves me free to concentrate on other things like substitutions, numbering, and communicating with my crew. Just get your clock guys to understand that they start the clock at the END of each play -- no exceptions. They can always turn off the play clock and reset if there's a penalty enforcement or other issue. For some reason, we've had experienced Referees running play clocks recently still not work the play clock correctly.

Have a good pregame with the clock guys the first 3-4 weeks of the season, inform the coaches of where issues might arise in scrimmages, and you should have a smooth transition. After that, you'll wonder why they ever had it any other way.
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old Fri May 03, 2019, 12:49am
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Ball boys even at the college level are often bad. We just have a procedure there to make it work a little better and we also have 7 officials as well to make it work. We have 5 right now at the high school level and unless that changes, ball boys would be a luxury and a problem at the same time.
Obviously, everyone's experience is different. I can't speak for your area but all my college games have had 2 college aged ball boys PER TEAM on each sideline. Some have been better than others but I couldn't call any of them bad. Perhaps I've just been lucky.

In HS, we often have jr. high kids -- sometimes only 1 or 2 per sideline and always the same as that team. No crossover. We struggle sometimes but we still get it done. It just takes some effort with the wing officials. It is obviously easier with 7 officials but you can do it with 5. I can't recall a single HS game where the ball boys caused a significant 40 second clock snag during the game. I mean, yeah, there were times it may have happened and maybe my guys were good enough to cover up for it, but I can think of smaller school games where we had chain crew issues (team fans/adults) more than ball boy issues. Maybe I'm just used to it or again, maybe just lucky. We've worked a lot of 7 man the last 2 years in HS but most of my 40 second clock varsity games in HS have been 5 man.

We've walked into locker rooms after games with my wing guys commenting on ball boys but I don't recall thinking, "yeah, they really hampered us tonight in a big way."
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old Fri May 03, 2019, 12:59am
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I thought the 7 on the line rule was dead a long time ago. Wow. I don't even remember when the NCAA changed that.
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  #55 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 07, 2019, 02:40pm
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
I do not think this is just a state issue, it is a conference issue, an area issue. They could suggest they have ball boys but not have the people available (their claim) to do what they are being asked. We have issues during the postseason to get procedures followed to a letter.

Here is my thing, I really do not care either way. It is what it is. Ball boys even at the college level are often bad. We just have a procedure there to make it work a little better and we also have 7 officials as well to make it work. We have 5 right now at the high school level and unless that changes, ball boys would be a luxury and a problem at the same time. Either way, the NF had to know this when they put in the rule that many states do not have visible clocks and certainly does not have ball boys. I will be waiting as I did during before this current basketball season to figure out if they did not consider all the challenges that will occur with a new rule. We will see what happens when everything comes out for real.

Peace
Overall women softball/basketball players make the best ball boys.
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 07, 2019, 03:01pm
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Originally Posted by Texas Aggie View Post
Obviously, everyone's experience is different. I can't speak for your area but all my college games have had 2 college aged ball boys PER TEAM on each sideline. Some have been better than others but I couldn't call any of them bad. Perhaps I've just been lucky.
I am just saying if we are having issues at the small college level, we are likely to have more problems with more teams and more games. There are always exceptions and people that know their job and do it properly, but we have enough problems with chain crews and now we do not have an easy remedy to this situation. Just saying it might work much of the time, but that is not what causes controversy if they have not thought of all the angles to this rule. Nothing wrong with the rule unless you cover the other aspects of the rule application.

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Originally Posted by Texas Aggie View Post
In HS, we often have jr. high kids -- sometimes only 1 or 2 per sideline and always the same as that team. No crossover. We struggle sometimes but we still get it done. It just takes some effort with the wing officials. It is obviously easier with 7 officials but you can do it with 5. I can't recall a single HS game where the ball boys caused a significant 40 second clock snag during the game. I mean, yeah, there were times it may have happened and maybe my guys were good enough to cover up for it, but I can think of smaller school games where we had chain crew issues (team fans/adults) more than ball boy issues. Maybe I'm just used to it or again, maybe just lucky. We've worked a lot of 7 man the last 2 years in HS but most of my 40 second clock varsity games in HS have been 5 man.
We are lucky if we get a single ball boy and again it is from the team's sideline with only their football. So if the play ends on the other sideline, no help from the other team with their opponent's football.

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Originally Posted by Texas Aggie View Post
We've walked into locker rooms after games with my wing guys commenting on ball boys but I don't recall thinking, "yeah, they really hampered us tonight in a big way."
Heck, I do not say that during college games when they are bad. Just saying that this rule has pitfalls. It is not the end of the world. I am not going to be the one complaining when no one gets the ball on the track and time is of the essence.

Peace
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  #57 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 07, 2019, 08:43pm
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So if the play ends on the other sideline, no help from the other team with their opponent's football.
Our ball boys go and get all balls. We've never had an issue there. In the case you speak of (and it occurs in any clock situation) the wing on the offensive team's sideline turns around and gets a new ball, and the old ball gets thrown back over at some point -- usually within a play or two. The biggest issue we have is that coaches are paranoid sometimes about their balls being on the other team's sideline and will ask us about it if we don't get it back to them but that's after a few plays.
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  #58 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 08, 2019, 12:05am
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Originally Posted by Texas Aggie View Post
Our ball boys go and get all balls. We've never had an issue there.
I do not think you understand. We do not have 4 footballs per team. We have one. We have one that is used the entire game unless there is bad weather. They are often the coach's son or a manager or even a hurt player. They are not chasing or even paying attention to what is actually going on. We have a hard enough time getting them to get us a ball during a change of possession. So how are we going to all of a sudden get a system in place to make ball change easier? I am sure you live in a place that values on the ball boy and how football exchanges are done. But I live in a place where if they get us the football in the first place is a challenge, because they give that responsiblity to some kid that would rather be talking to others than paying attention to the game.

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Originally Posted by Texas Aggie View Post
In the case you speak of (and it occurs in any clock situation) the wing on the offensive team's sideline turns around and gets a new ball, and the old ball gets thrown back over at some point -- usually within a play or two. The biggest issue we have is that coaches are paranoid sometimes about their balls being on the other team's sideline and will ask us about it if we don't get it back to them but that's after a few plays.
Actually the bigger issue is the plays in-between the drive, not the change of possession. Change of possessions can be annoying, but it does not influence the game, just when we put might be delayed. The issue I have is the long run or the sideline play where we do not get the ball back at all and we are either chasing the ball or waiting for the ball to come back to us. Easier with two deep wings and 2 ball boys with each team's footballs on each sideline. Not so much in our case.

Peace
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Old Wed May 08, 2019, 11:50am
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
I do not think you understand. We do not have 4 footballs per team. We have one. We have one that is used the entire game unless there is bad weather. They are often the coach's son or a manager or even a hurt player. They are not chasing or even paying attention to what is actually going on. We have a hard enough time getting them to get us a ball during a change of possession. So how are we going to all of a sudden get a system in place to make ball change easier? I am sure you live in a place that values on the ball boy and how football exchanges are done. But I live in a place where if they get us the football in the first place is a challenge, because they give that responsiblity to some kid that would rather be talking to others than paying attention to the game.



Actually the bigger issue is the plays in-between the drive, not the change of possession. Change of possessions can be annoying, but it does not influence the game, just when we put might be delayed. The issue I have is the long run or the sideline play where we do not get the ball back at all and we are either chasing the ball or waiting for the ball to come back to us. Easier with two deep wings and 2 ball boys with each team's footballs on each sideline. Not so much in our case.

Peace
This rule change exposes a major issue you have in your area with ball mechanics. The state should address that. The teams have multiple footballs so the only reason they aren't providing more is because they aren't being asked. That ask may need to come from the state and not the officials to be effective. It doesn't take more than 2 or 3 to be effective but 4 is common for us. Good luck!
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Old Wed May 08, 2019, 02:26pm
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Originally Posted by bisonlj View Post
This rule change exposes a major issue you have in your area with ball mechanics. The state should address that. The teams have multiple footballs so the only reason they aren't providing more is because they aren't being asked. That ask may need to come from the state and not the officials to be effective. It doesn't take more than 2 or 3 to be effective but 4 is common for us. Good luck!
Not worried at all honestly. If it matters to them they will change it. If not then provide the proper help. It was like when I worked baseball and the teams wanted me to give another ball. If you do not go chase the foul balls we are using what I have got. Had that happen one time and it was funny how upset the home coach got even with me warning them how few baseballs I had left in the bag. Then we got down to zero and the coach wanted a ball change after a foul ball in the wet grass. This is going to hurt them more than it hurt us. Just like when a team runs a hurry-up offense but does not get the ball back to the officials to help them run at a certain tempo.

Peace
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