ending the half on a B penalty.....

[chris s]

I was working LJ todays frosh game, U is 73 years old(he is retiring after this season). I had a five yard facemask on B, march it off and we got 13 seconds left, R winds the clock. A does not get play off,(did not seem to try) As we stroll to snack bar to get charged for our food/drinks, U sez we screwed the pooch and A should have gotten a play. I sez...too bad A, clock was not expired, thus no untimed down...ol coger was adamant and we left it up to me to find out...what say???

[Schmidt MJ]

Your U was right. If the penalty is accepted for a foul that was committed during the last down of a period, the period will be extended for an untimed down. If A never made an effort to snap the ball, then the foul was committed during the last down of the period, even if that was with 13 seconds left.

[Warrenkicker]

Your U was right. Read 3-3-3

ART. 3 . . . A period must be extended by an untimed down if during the last down of the period, one of the following occurs:

a. There was a foul, other than unsportsmanlike or non-player, by either team and the penalty is accepted.
b. There was a double foul.
c. There was an inadvertent whistle.
d. If a touchdown was scored, the try is attempted unless the touchdown is scored during the last down of the fourth period and the point(s) would not affect the outcome of the game or playoff qualifying.

Periods, not just a half, are extend for live-ball fouls and not dead-ball fouls. And remember that it is not just during the last play when the time ran out during that play but for the last play run during the period. Say with 45 seconds left in the game A ran a play and was called for holding. Then before the next snap B encroached. Then the clock ran out before the next snap. You must run another play because during the last timed down there was an accepted penalty, the holding penalty.

[Edited by Warrenkicker on Oct 4th, 2003 at 05:34 PM]

[BktBallRef]

You need to listen to the ol' codger. Most of these guys have forgotten more football that a lot of us will ever know.

[Rich]

Amazing. This happened to us this past week too.

Face mask on B. 4 seconds left - we wind the clock on the ready. After four seconds the line judge whistles the end of half (freshman game, 4-man, on field clock).

The referee held the ball up and I hit a whistle and gave a stop the clock signal to get the R's attention. We got together and I convinced him we needed to play an untimed down.

The last play of the half cannot be an accepted penalty -- EITHER WAY. First time I worked the chains all year -- I had a blast.

Rich

[PiggSkin]

Slightly different scenario...

15 seconds on the clock, A runs a draw and gains a first down... They quickly get set for the next play, and with three seconds remaining, either a) A false starts, or b) B encroaches... Penalty is marked, the clock starts on the RFP, and A doesn't get the snap off before the clock hits zero...

I've been told that A would not get another snap in either case because the penalty did not happen on the last down of the period... Rather, it happened after the last down, therefore 3-3-3 does not apply, and period is over...

I'm not sure if I agree with this argument, but I can't find any holes in it...

If this reasoning is valid, this would be a case where the period ends on an accepted penalty...

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by PiggSkin
Slightly different scenario...

15 seconds on the clock, A runs a draw and gains a first down... They quickly get set for the next play, and with three seconds remaining, either a) A false starts, or b) B encroaches... Penalty is marked, the clock starts on the RFP, and A doesn't get the snap off before the clock hits zero...

I've been told that A would not get another snap in either case because the penalty did not happen on the last down of the period... Rather, it happened after the last down, therefore 3-3-3 does not apply, and period is over...

I'm not sure if I agree with this argument, but I can't find any holes in it...

If this reasoning is valid, this would be a case where the period ends on an accepted penalty...

There are no holes. There is no extension of the period for an untimed down, unless there is acceptance of the penalty for a foul which occurred during the last timed down of the period. A dead ball foul does not occur during a down.

[Patsfan2431]

Guys,
My opinion differs and i believe the U got it WRONG. We've had many discussions of this on our board and we have all agreed that on a accepted penalty (in this case 13 seconds) the offense does not get an untimed down because technically the play was not the last play of the period. We have taken the stance that the play must be over with 0:00 on the clock to give the offense a untimed down when an accepted penalty on the defense occurs. If officials are taking the stance that the offense gets an untimed down when an accepted penalty occurs, the offense gets an undue avantage. If there is less than 25 sceonds to go, they can just talk about plays until the clock stops at 0:00 and then have another 25 seconds to get the untimed play off. I'm sorry, but if the clock is not 0:00 when the ref is calling the penalty, then that play is technically not the last play of the period.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Patsfan2431
Guys,
My opinion differs and i believe the U got it WRONG. We've had many discussions of this on our board and we have all agreed that on a accepted penalty (in this case 13 seconds) the offense does not get an untimed down because technically the play was not the last play of the period. We have taken the stance that the play must be over with 0:00 on the clock to give the offense a untimed down when an accepted penalty on the defense occurs. If officials are taking the stance that the offense gets an untimed down when an accepted penalty occurs, the offense gets an undue avantage. If there is less than 25 sceonds to go, they can just talk about plays until the clock stops at 0:00 and then have another 25 seconds to get the untimed play off. I'm sorry, but if the clock is not 0:00 when the ref is calling the penalty, then that play is technically not the last play of the period.

No, I'm sorry. You're wrong. The rule does not say that time must expire during the down. It refers to the last timed down of the period. This was most certainly the last timed down. But don't take my word for it, here's a case play that backs it up.

3.3.3 SITUATION C: Near the end of the third period, it is third and 4 for A from B's 48-yard line. A1 advances to B's 45 and during the run there is holding by B1. The penalty is accepted. At the end of the down there are three seconds remaining in the period. Because the penalty was the only reason for the clock to be stopped, it is started with the ready-for-play signal and the period ends before A snaps the ball.
RULING: A is entitled to an untimed down because it accepted the penalty for afoul which occurred during the last timed down of the period. Therefore, the period must be extended with an untimed down in this situation even though time remained and A had a chance to snap the ball before it expired.

I'd be interested to read all these discussions where we all agreed on this. Seems you need to listen to the ol' codger, too.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by Patsfan2431
Guys,
My opinion differs and i believe the U got it WRONG. We've had many discussions of this on our board and we have all agreed that on a accepted penalty (in this case 13 seconds) the offense does not get an untimed down because technically the play was not the last play of the period. We have taken the stance that the play must be over with 0:00 on the clock to give the offense a untimed down when an accepted penalty on the defense occurs. If officials are taking the stance that the offense gets an untimed down when an accepted penalty occurs, the offense gets an undue avantage. If there is less than 25 sceonds to go, they can just talk about plays until the clock stops at 0:00 and then have another 25 seconds to get the untimed play off. I'm sorry, but if the clock is not 0:00 when the ref is calling the penalty, then that play is technically not the last play of the period.

Hi Patsfan,

Normally I would not interject, especially officiating using a different rule set.

However,

Although discussion is good because everybody learns, but after reading this board for 3 years now, if there is one thing that I have learned, it is that BktBallRef is never wrong. I have never seen him post a message that was incorrect. Ever.

[Edited by JugglingReferee on Oct 5th, 2003 at 09:09 AM]

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by JugglingReferee
Although discussion is good because everybody learns, but after reading this board for 3 years now, if there is one thing that I have learned, it is that BktBallRef is never wrong. I have never seen him post a message that was incorrect. Ever.

That's because I quickly delete those posts before many posters get a chance to read them.

[chris s]

What if A has a 30 point lead, ball is buried on thier 1 yard line and does not want to run a play???? With 13 seconds left on the RFP, they cannot delay...so you make them take a knee????

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by chris s
What if A has a 30 point lead, ball is buried on thier 1 yard line and does not want to run a play???? With 13 seconds left on the RFP, they cannot delay...so you make them take a knee????

Then they should decline the penalty.

[Middleman]

Originally posted by chris s
What if A has a 30 point lead, ball is buried on thier 1 yard line and does not want to run a play???? With 13 seconds left on the RFP, they cannot delay...so you make them take a knee????

Make them take a knee? No, they are entitled to run any play they want.

If the foul was committed by A and B has accepted, A will most certainly have to snap the ball.

If the foul was committed by B, after enforcement the ball would not be "buried at their one yard line." Furthermore, if the foul is by B, down by thirty points, A will probably decline and end the game.

[mikesears]

Originally posted by Patsfan2431
Guys,
My opinion differs and i believe the U got it WRONG. We've had many discussions of this on our board and we have all agreed that on a accepted penalty (in this case 13 seconds) the offense does not get an untimed down because technically the play was not the last play of the period.

When does a down start? A down begins when it is snapped (or legally free-kicked). The rule doesn't say "play"... it says to extend the quarter if a foul occurs during the last "down" of a period.

Originally posted by Patsfan2431
We have taken the stance that the play must be over with 0:00 on the clock to give the offense a untimed down when an accepted penalty on the defense occurs.

This isn't correct. Is this directly from your state association? Or is this from your official's association?

Originally posted by Patsfan2431
If officials are taking the stance that the offense gets an untimed down when an accepted penalty occurs, the offense gets an undue avantage.

BOTH teams are entitled to a "penalty-free" down under NFHS rules. If Team B doesn't want Team A to run a play, they can decline the penalty and take the results of the play. Good officials will explain this option to the offended captain.

Originally posted by Patsfan2431
If there is less than 25 sceonds to go, they can just talk about plays until the clock stops at 0:00 and then have another 25 seconds to get the untimed play off.

Referee will inform BOTH teams to ignore the 0:00 and run the play. They still only have 25 second play clock. They wouldn't get an addtional 25 seconds.

Originally posted by Patsfan2431
I'm sorry, but if the clock is not 0:00 when the ref is calling the penalty, then that play is technically not the last play of the period.

Then what would be the last play (down) of a period?


[Edited by mikesears on Oct 6th, 2003 at 06:37 AM]