Shift/Motion Question

[KEFerrell]

Last weekend I got into a discussion with two ten year veterans about a rule. Being a first year guy and being polite I decided to "yeild to thier experience" and drop the discussion. Upon doing a little more research when I got home I do believe I'm right, Can I get backed up on this, and get a tip on how a Rookie like me can broach it to these guys that they have apparently been seeing things wrong for ten years.

A comes out of the huddle and sets for one second. A2 and A3 go in motion both 5 yards back and away from the opponents goal line. A2 comes set for a second , however A3 does not, continues his motion until the ball is snapped.

I say Illegal shift, they say no flag. Thier logic is that "only one player is in motion and not 'breaking his shoulders to the line'"

7-3-6 says all 11 have to be set after a huddle or shift. At least thats how I read it.

[cmathews]

KEFerrell, you are correct it is an illegal shift...the rule reference however is 7-2-6 but no biggie...the way to broach the subject is like this...ask if all 11 players have to be set for 1 second after a shift, you should get a yes they do. The ask if A1 and A2 are both moving is that a shift, again you should get a yes. Then say with that in mind that they have to set after a shift, and this is a shift they have to set for 1 second correct?? This should turn the bulb on, hopefully......and good luck

[seanireland]

See p. 21 Case Book "ILLEGAL SHIFTS" It seems you have 2.37 Situations A or C.(or very close to it). Do you agree?

I believe you mean 7-2-6. If A2 and A3 started legally as backs, then (to my understanding) they don't have to be five yards back. Do you mention the five yards because one or both did not line up clearly as a back?

I am only in my second year, all of the GOOD officials that I have worked with have been very open to questions and more questions. Those who blow me off get blown off by me. The best officials are the ones who are open to helping us new guys get better.

It seems to me that a good official is always learning. At your association meeting or next game, you may want to ask what the other officials have to say about the questionable play.

You looked in the book. I have been told over and over to look in the book. GREAT ADVICE!!

When we new guys have concerns like this, I feel we are best off to ask a number of officials what the right call is and why.

[KEFerrell]

Thanks for the reference on page 21. I had forgotten to look under the defintions section in the casebook. Yes Both A and C are the case we were discussing. I had found 7.2.6 on page 51 to be somewhat helpful but page 21 sums it up much more clearly.

As to asking if all eleven men had to be set after a shift, this came up during the previous discussion. I was rebuffed by one of the veterans claiming "it was only a shift while both of them were moving, when one sets it becomes legal motion". I didnt want this to esclate to whipping out rulebooks at halftime. I can only imagine what that would look like to the coaches.

Now I just need to find a tactful way to get these guys back in the rulebook

[JMN]

KEF,

It may not be worth taking on the responsibility of getting these guys back in the books. If they're not doing it now, they probably won't. (I never understand how guys quit immersing themselves in the books!)

Anyway, what might work is to ask the question in a group forum. I know that at our meetings, we always have a segment for play situations from the previous weeks that allow anyone to cite a play situation and everyone to kick around the proper ruling, citing rule references when needed.

In this way, you will bring the situation up so that all can learn, get the added benefit of allowing those that were wrong to hear the correct ruling (from veterans vs. a rookie who was correct), and be recognized as one interested in learning the rules. Just be sure to leave out the part about the old codgers that told you the wrong enforcement.

[KEFerrell]

I'm not sure how well that would be perceived by those involved. Since there were several of us in on the discussion. Not only the two veterans with the "right answer" the rookie with the correct answer, but the other crewmembers were at least overhearing the conversation.

I dont want this to turn from a rules point to a public flogging in front of the local group.

Since nothing was ever flagged nobody could call the R on it while the game was on. I was working chains so I couldnt get onto the field to question it even if there were a pause where I the crew got together.

Thing is I like these guys. R and U, and dont want them to get called out on the carpet by a supervisor who sees it, live or on tape. I'm of the feeling if something goes wrong we all bear the burden. Not only on your crew but overall, we do try to help each other improve. It shouldn't all rest on the supervisors.

Several things they drill into us new guys.
1)See the ball
2)Work as a team, the guys in stripes are your ONLY friends out there.
3)See the ball
4)We are all responsible for getting the right enforcement.
5)See the ball
6)Don't look for things to call.
7) and please make sure you see the ball.

To me this fits into 2 and 4.

[MD Longhorn]

Try it from a different tack then. I understand where you wouldn't want them to get flogged publicly...

Next time you're working with them, have the book handy. Start with, "Remember that illegal shift we were talking about last week. After we talked, I dug around in the book to refresh my memory on the rules, because obviously I was missing something. Here's what I found (read them the relevant rule). What am I missing? I can't find the rule that says once one of the two players stops, it's legal motion."

That might not be perfect, but it A) shows them you are interested in learning, and B) shows them they were wrong without you having to be accusatory. Best case, they'll say they misunderstood the question the week before, and you're right (and they'll start calling it correctly in the future). Worst case, they'll be upset, but will start calling it correctly.

Even veterans make mistakes - but there's no good reason to allow the mistakes to continue. Everyone should learn from mistakes.

[KEFerrell]

Nice spin on it

I'll roll with that one, thanks

[JasonTX]

Let us know how it turns out.

[JMN]

Originally posted by KEFerrell
I dont want this to turn from a rules point to a public flogging in front of the local group.

Didn't mean to suggest initiating a public flogging. Obviously, that would be destructive. And certainly, if bringing it up creates a negative inference on your part, I would stear clear!

I guess other meetings are different from ours. We actually encourage officials to cite plays and ask questions about rules, philosophy, and enforcements. It's not a negative thing! We discuss our views and usually the senior guys with the moderator agree on the enforcements. This helps us all to learn and strengthens our group philosophy.

It's not uncommon for a less experienced official to find a rule in the book that helps clarify the conversation.

mbcrowder's suggestion is also a good one. Heck, if you've learned the rule, maybe enough's been done and trying to get this in front of the old guys isn't worth it.

[Bob M.]

REPLY: While NCAA and Federation definitions of a shift differ, they are consistent in one aspect: When a player (or multiple players) are moving, they have not shifted. A shift occurs only when they stop moving and assume another set position. When they are moving, they are simply "in motion."

FED: NF 2-37: "A shift is the action of one or more offensive players who, after a huddle or after taking set positions, move to a new set position before the ensuing snap."

NCAA: 2-22-1: "A shift is a simultaneous change of position by two or more offensive players after the ball is ready for play for a scrimmage and before the next snap."

[seanireland]

Originally posted by Bob M.


FED: NF 2-37: "A shift is the action of one or more offensive players who, after a huddle or after taking set positions, move to a new set position before the ensuing snap."

I am curious. KEFerrell said, "A comes out of the huddle and sets for one second. A2 and A3 go in motion ... ///A2 comes set for a second///, however A3 does not, continues his motion until the ball is snapped."

and

Case Book says p.21 2.37 SITUATION C: After A has been set for more than one second, back A1 goes in motion. While A1 is in motion, back A2 takes one step forward and then resets. A1 is still in motion when the ball is snapped two seconds after A2 reset. RULING: ILLEGAL SHIFT. A2's movement was a shift and the failure of the entire team to set for at least one second after the shift and before the snap is a foul at the snap. (7-2-6)

To me, KEFerrell's back A2 is the same as the A2 guy in the SITUATION. Didn't A2 shift in both scenarios?
KEFerrell's A3 is the same as the A1 guy in the SITUATION (i.e. in motion at the snap).

How is KEFerrell's situation NOT an illegal shift?

[JamesBond]

Originally posted by Bob M.
REPLY: While NCAA and Federation definitions of a shift differ, they are consistent in one aspect: When a player (or multiple players) are moving, they have not shifted. A shift occurs only when they stop moving and assume another set position. When they are moving, they are simply "in motion."

FED: NF 2-37: "A shift is the action of one or more offensive players who, after a huddle or after taking set positions, move to a new set position before the ensuing snap."

NCAA: 2-22-1: "A shift is a simultaneous change of position by two or more offensive players after the ball is ready for play for a scrimmage and before the next snap."

In reading both the NF and NCAA version, the shift occurs when the players move from one location to another. Its written in plain english. Read those definitions again. When the players are moving they are shifting (from one location to the other). All 11 have to be set before a player can be in legal "motion". Think of "motion" as a mobile form of being "set" and you will never get this wrong. Legal motion is deliberate and conforms to rigid set of circumstances. Any thing else is illegal motion. And if all 11 are not in a static set before legal motion initiates, it is an illegal shift. Easy right?

007

[Bob M.]

Originally posted by JamesBond

In reading both the NF and NCAA version, the shift occurs when the players move from one location to another. Its written in plain english. Read those definitions again. When the players are moving they are shifting (from one location to the other). All 11 have to be set before a player can be in legal "motion". Think of "motion" as a mobile form of being "set" and you will never get this wrong. Legal motion is deliberate and conforms to rigid set of circumstances. Any thing else is illegal motion. And if all 11 are not in a static set before legal motion initiates, it is an illegal shift. Easy right?

007

REPLY: James, you really need to consult Moneypenny and "Q" on this one...Read the NF definition again. And you're right...it is in plain English. It clearly says that a shift occurs when a player moves from one set position to another set position. When a player is moving, he's simply "in motion." Yes, it may result in a shift, but not until he stops. If it was a shift while he was still moving, how could a player ever be legally in motion since after a shift all eleven players (including the guy who shifted) must come to a one second stop? Such movement would violate the shift rules as you interpret them. And what the heck is a "mobile form of being set"???? I realize that the NCAA definition is different, having officiated at the college and HS levels. It involves the movement of two players and doesn't explicitly use the word "set" in front of the word "position" like the Fed rule. However, the principle is the same as is the restriction that after a shift (either code) all eleven players must come to a one second pause before the snap.

[Forksref]

When all else fails, go to the book. A veteran official once told me to KNOW Chapt. 2 (definitions) and be familiar with the rest of the book. Good advice.

I have been officiating FB since 1975 and I am having my best year this year because I dedicated myself to knowing the rules and signals better than ever. And.........I am still being corrected and learning! I have the rule book in the bathroom and browse it whenever I am in there. I made a list on my computer of all the penalties (p. 77) and mixed them up. Every week I go through the list and quiz myself with the penalty and signal. That has greatly increased my confidence this year on the field. I white hat about 2/3 of the games I do, including varsity. I have worked all the positions over the years, but this year wanted to learn the umpire position better, so in sub-varsity games I umpire when I can. Working all the positions is great experience.s

I try to engage officials in rules/situations discussions when we are in the car, pre-game, half-time, during timeouts. It is amazing how some don't like to engage in these discussions.

One guy on our crew who is older than I am said the other night that he goes to the case book. I told him the rule book is my friend. We had a question before a game last week and within a minute I found the rule in the book. If I had tried to find the exact situation in the case book we would never have gotten the game started.

A friend of mine is a senior FB official in the Big 12 (formerly the Big 8). He says that hard work got him to where he is today. Sure, there are breaks needed to move up, but no one got there without hard work first. And BTW, I did college FB for 3 years and I enjoy HS FB much more.

Keep studying and discussing!