Untimed down after grounding (again)

[bwburke94]

Did they learn nothing from the Central Michigan/Oklahoma State game?

Fenwick takes legal action against IHSA after officiating error in Plainfield North semifinal game | The Herald-News

[falsecut]

No. Next question?


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[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by falsecut

No. Next question?


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Or they did not care.

Peace

[CT1]

Originally Posted by bwburke94

Did these chumps ...

Must be nice to be perfect. I wouldn't know.

I don't know any of the crew involved. But I can promise you that they feel worse than anyone else involved in this fiasco.

[Rich]

Cleanup on aisle three. I've kept the OP's post because it's a topic worth talking about.

Court hearing is at 9AM tomorrow. I expect that the request for injunctive relief will be denied.

It's too bad that one of the five officials on the field didn't step up and make himself heard.

The sad thing is that there are a SIGNIFICANT number of football officials who will blame the white hat for this, as if he's the only one who's required to know the rules.

[HLin NC]

I agree with the fact that it's a crew mistake and thus they all take the blame. However, there are white hats who will eventually say that "we've got to make a decision and I'm going with this" or some variant of that. Short of a crew member(s) staging some sort of on field coup or walking off the field in disgust, which isn't going to happen, what do you do once its been talked out and you're "outvoted"? You're going to have to eat the turdburger together.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by HLin NC

I agree with the fact that it's a crew mistake and thus they all take the blame. However, there are white hats who will eventually say that "we've got to make a decision and I'm going with this" or some variant of that. Short of a crew member(s) staging some sort of on field coup or walking off the field in disgust, which isn't going to happen, what do you do once its been talked out and you're "outvoted"? You're going to have to eat the turdburger together.

I am a crew chief of a playoff crew. I always empower my crew members to come to me with rules or specifics of why we are going to screw something up. Now you have to come to with an actual rule or why we are not enforcing from the right spot, but not just an opinion. If someone would have told me in this situation that "We cannot extend the game for a loss of down penalty" I know I would have believed them considering I do know that rule. I do not run it like a dictator. I even tell my members, "If you do not know the rule, then you need to rethink if that is something you should call." That just means they have to know all the elements of the call, do not expect me to save them. But there does come a point that you have to make a decision. So we cannot just be debating a rule, but I am not the final arbiter of these things on my crew unless there is a clear disagreement. But then again I have very good rules guys and have good rules discussions during pre-games for that very reason.

Peace

[Altor]

The OhioHSAA had a series of lawsuits like this over the course of a few years. They won every one of them. Eventually they got tired of paying the lawyers and passed a by-law that if a member school sues the AA and loses, the AA can penalize them monetarily to recover the expense of the litigation.

I've only heard of one instance since then when a lawsuit was being discussed and that was by parents, not the school. They eventually decided to not pursue litigation.

[robbie]

Ruling on the field stands.

[jchamp]

I'm still trying to figure out what injury the school can claim by being denied a win. The school's costs are actually reduced due to fewer transportation needs, reduced field use for practices, and possibly even less overtime pay to staff and lower bonuses paid to the coaches, depending on the terms of the various contracts. The only possible injured party would be a booster club that loses out on the opportunity to sell school merchandise, and that would be very hard to prove and likely fall into small-claims. Since Illinois requires small claims to first go through a round of arbitration, there still won't be a change in the result of the game.

[BoomerSooner]

Originally Posted by jchamp

I'm still trying to figure out what injury the school can claim by being denied a win. The school's costs are actually reduced due to fewer transportation needs, reduced field use for practices, and possibly even less overtime pay to staff and lower bonuses paid to the coaches, depending on the terms of the various contracts. The only possible injured party would be a booster club that loses out on the opportunity to sell school merchandise, and that would be very hard to prove and likely fall into small-claims. Since Illinois requires small claims to first go through a round of arbitration, there still won't be a change in the result of the game.

You could argue the value of winning a state championship. I'm not sure how strong an argument I could make, but I'm sure in some places the prestige of a state championship has some value.

[Rich]

There are damages other than financial.

[JRutledge]

Also Plainfield North got blown out by a much better team. I do not think Fenwick would have really challenged the eventual champion East St. Louis who was probably the best team I saw all year long.

Ironically, East St. Louis last year had to forfeit their playoff run because their school went on a strike. So they could be two time champions, instead of just winning this year.

Peace

[Texas Aggie]

I'm still trying to figure out what injury the school can claim by being denied a win.

Damages (i.e. money) are only one part of legal remedies. Equity is another (i.e. you get the land or the property or get to have title to something). Think of it like a child custody battle.

I'm not saying they had a valid case. I'm just saying that IF they had a valid case, the idea of a potential remedy still exists. You do bring up a good point: when there aren't any specific damages on a legal theory that is a suit on law (as opposed to a suit in equity), then the lack of damages itself COULD be a bar to recovery.

This was an interesting course in law school. The prof started out the course by saying, "OK, counselor, you won your case at trial. Now what?" We went through legal cases where the Plaintiff was awarded nominal damages (think $1). The prof would then say, "and a third of that is yours!"

their school went on a strike

Hell, no we won't go.
Hell, no we won't go.

Ah, the good old days!

[chapmaja]

To me this seems to be an open and shut legal case. The officials screwed up, but based on the rules of the IHSA, which the losing schools agrees to abide by, the result shall be upset.

I read through the list of complaints and it appears many of them are attempts to confuse or redirect the court from the actual IHSA rules.

We had an interesting situation in boys soccer in Michigan's post-season.

In a regional final that went to penalty kicks, a goal was disallowed when the officials penalized the shooter for shooting out of order. The team that was penalized ended up losing the shootout. They appealed to the MHSAA.

The MHSAA has a rule that states the judgment of the officials on all NFHS rules shall be final.

The MHSAA upheld the appeal on this because in this instance, the order of shooters is not mentioned in the NFHS rules. There is a MHSAA rule covering penalty kicks for advancement in the post-season tourney. That rule does not specify a specific shooting order be declared. Since there was no NFHS rule in play, and the MHSAA policy was violated, the MHSAA ordered the game continued from the point of the disallowed goal. They had to come back the day before the state semi-final to continue the PK's. The result remained exactly the same after it was continued.