LOD on 4th down

[Welpe]

Make the foul from a whole yard line. It's an approximation anyways, especially if the QB is on the run when he throws.

[MTUMP]

I typically would use a whole yard line. I posted this way to see if there are alternatives to stepping off a 5 yard penalty, between yard lines, and then measuring for a first down for as in play C. In this case that action would dictate whether A keeps the ball for one more play, or if B takes the ball over on downs....right?

[ajmc]

IFP foul is enforced from the end of the run (spot of the pass), penalty is 5 yards, loss of (right to repeat) down. If the subsequent spot is beyond the LTG, 1st down for A, clock starts on the ready. If the subsequent spot remains behind the LTG, 1st down for B, clock starts on the snap.

[MTUMP]

In case C, would you consider measuring if the end of the run was "ahead of the tape" by flipping the chains ahead by pivoting on the line to gain post? Or step off the 5 yard penalty, and then measure for a first down?

[Robert Goodman]

I'm interested in the clock status. If team A winds up with first down, and a stopped clock (with a lot of time taken for administration before the RFP, even w/o the possibly tricky measurement) for the incompletion, it seems they've gained a good deal for their illegal forward pass. Consider that the passer was well beyond the neutral zone when he let fly; seems like a deliberate attempt to conserve time. Would you invoke 3-4-6 and start the clock on the RFP? Seems the least you could do in the situation.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

I'm interested in the clock status. If team A winds up with first down, and a stopped clock (with a lot of time taken for administration before the RFP, even w/o the possibly tricky measurement) for the incompletion, it seems they've gained a good deal for their illegal forward pass. Consider that the passer was well beyond the neutral zone when he let fly; seems like a deliberate attempt to conserve time. Would you invoke 3-4-6 and start the clock on the RFP? Seems the least you could do in the situation.

The IFP is considered a running play, and should the enforcement result in A being granted a 1st down, the game clock would start on the RFP

[whitehat]

Concerning a measurement: If you have the privilege of working on a very well marked field (as in an artificial surface) then of course between the 20's you try to start a 1st down on a hash or yard line, then knowing if the dead ball spot has reached that hash ten yards down field you don't measure. If you start on a half yard spot it's a little trickier. The tape on the chain helps, but at best, Umpires footsteps are an imprecise science. If the covering official is on his game he will ensure the spot of the foul (even by moving his flag) is not that close either way....:-)

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by ajmc

The IFP is considered a running play, and should the enforcement result in A being granted a 1st down, the game clock would start on the RFP

But what about 3-4-2 and 3-4-3(e)? Incomplete forward pass (doesn't matter whether it's a legal one), stopping the clock, and then 3-4-2 referring to clock stoppages under 3-4-3? Seems to me the clock has to stay stopped barring invocation of 3-4-6. Pretty good tactical foul by team A if that's not invoked; the extra time they'll get to pick a play is probably worth the distance they'll give up, when they have to go for the touchdown in just 5 secs. Of course the player could instead have thrown a legal backwards pass out of bounds & probably reduced that distance.