Intentional grounding

[BoBo]

I know we have been down this road before but please refresh my mind.

4th Down and 10 from A's 20 yard line.

A1 (QB) drops back to the A's 10 yard line, in the process of being tackled intentionally grounds the ball where nobody but inelgibles stand.

Question 1:
Throw the flag at the spot of the foul= A's 10 yard line
This I know is true.

Question 2:
What are B's options:
A) If they accept the penalty where is the 5 yards marked of from and what and whose ball is it?

B) If declined where and whose ball is it?

We always get confused because one of the fundamentals is "No foul can result in the change of possession"

Any comments appreciated.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by BoBo

Question 2:
What are B's options:
A) If they accept the penalty where is the 5 yards marked of from and what and whose ball is it?

The ball would be B's. First and 10 the other way. All a loss of down penalty is the loss of the right to repeat the down. Usually a live ball foul you would repeat the down. This is a loss of down penalty, so if it is fourth down, you cannot give them 4th down again.

Originally posted by BoBo

B) If declined where and whose ball is it?

It would just be an incomplete pass and B would have the ball, first and 10.

Peace

[BoBo]

In question 1 then do you mark off 5 yards from the spot of the foul A's 10 yard line to A's 5 yard line and 1st and 10 for B?

Guess I am asking is if the defense accepts the penalty what and where do they get the ball then?

[Ed Hickland]

Originally posted by BoBo
I know we have been down this road before but please refresh my mind.

4th Down and 10 from A's 20 yard line.

A1 (QB) drops back to the A's 10 yard line, in the process of being tackled intentionally grounds the ball where nobody but inelgibles stand.

Question 1:
Throw the flag at the spot of the foul= A's 10 yard line
This I know is true.

Question 2:
What are B's options:
A) If they accept the penalty where is the 5 yards marked of from and what and whose ball is it?

B) If declined where and whose ball is it?

We always get confused because one of the fundamentals is "No foul can result in the change of possession"

Any comments appreciated.

"No foul can result in the change of possession". The foul did not cause change of possession; that occurred when all four downs had been used.

In the situation described the penalty is enforced from the end of the run -- A's 10, five yards to A's 5. Then B would take over on downs since the down cannot be replayed.

When there is a loss of down situation on fourth down like this, I always give the captain absolutely no choice of declining the penalty. Why should he decline the penalty?

[Rich]

It's amazing how many referees give all the options every time, no matter the situation.

I had a first touching situation where R could have the ball on its own 5 or its own 15. Why should I bother seeking out a captain when the choice is completely obvious?

Rich

[PSU213]

Originally posted by JRutledge

The ball would be B's. First and 10 the other way. All a loss of down penalty is the loss of the right to repeat the down. Usually a live ball foul you would repeat the down. This is a loss of down penalty, so if it is fourth down, you cannot give them 4th down again.

It would just be an incomplete pass and B would have the ball, first and 10.

Peace

I just wanted to clear this up. If for whatever unknown reason B declines the foul, it will be B's ball at the spot of the foul, not from the previous spot (7-5-3).

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
It's amazing how many referees give all the options every time, no matter the situation.

I had a first touching situation where R could have the ball on its own 5 or its own 15. Why should I bother seeking out a captain when the choice is completely obvious?

Rich

Rich, I would seek the captain but I would say, "you want this penalty and you will get the ball." Not much else can be said after that, then they say yes faster than I can complete what I am going to say.

Peace

[BoBo]

So if I understand what everybody is telling me:

If you were to speak to the captain to give the options:

Captain we have intentional grounding against the offense. If you take the penalty we will mark 5 yards off from the spot of the foul; the offense has given the ball up on downs and it will be 1st down for you. Obviously they should take the penalty.

If you should decline the penalty you will get the ball from the spot of the foul the 10 yard line and 1st down. (I guess I do not understand why they will get the ball from the spot of the foul with this choice and not the previous spot.)

So if there is a penalty against offense on 4th Down that results in the loss of down and they do not reach the line to gain the defense gets the yardage and the ball?

In all of these cases?:
Offense Pass Interference: 15 yards from the previous spot loss of down, 1st and 10 Defense

Intentional Grounding: 5 yards from the spot of the foul loss of down, 1st and 10 Defense

Illegal Touching: 5 yards from the spot of the foul loss of down, 1st and 10 Defense

Illegal Forward Pass: 5 yards from end of the run loss of down, 1st and 10 Defense

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by BoBo
If you should decline the penalty you will get the ball from the spot of the foul the 10 yard line and 1st down. (I guess I do not understand why they will get the ball from the spot of the foul with this choice and not the previous spot.)

This isn't a loose ball play. It's a running play. The play ended at the end of the run. The ball would go back to the previous spot if the pass had been a legal forward pass but it wasn't, no matter whether the penalty is accepted or not.

So if there is a penalty against offense on 4th Down that results in the loss of down and they do not reach the line to gain the defense gets the yardage and the ball?

Even if they reach the line to gain, the penalty could bring the ball back behind the line to gain.

In all of these cases?:
Offense Pass Interference: 15 yards from the previous spot loss of down, 1st and 10 Defense

Intentional Grounding: 5 yards from the spot of the foul loss of down, 1st and 10 Defense

Illegal Touching: 5 yards from the spot of the foul loss of down, 1st and 10 Defense

Illegal Forward Pass: 5 yards from end of the run loss of down, 1st and 10 Defense

It doesn't matter which foul it is, it's all the same. If the penalty leaves the ball short of the line to gain, it's B's ball.

[MD Longhorn]

Why are you spotting it at the spot of the foul if they decline? If they decline, you ignore the foul, and it's an incomplete pass. 1st and 10 at the 20.

[mikesears]

Originally posted by mbcrowder
Why are you spotting it at the spot of the foul if they decline? If they decline, you ignore the foul, and it's an incomplete pass. 1st and 10 at the 20.

NF Rule 7-5-3:
If the offended team declines the distance penalty, it has the choice of having the down counted at the spot of the illegal incomplete forward pass.

[PSU213]

Originally posted by BoBo
Illegal Forward Pass: 5 yards from end of the run loss of down, 1st and 10 Defense

In this situation the defense would not always get the ball. If after enforcement of the penalty A is beyond the line to gain, it is a first down for A, as the loss of down aspect of a foul has no significance if the line to gain is reached after enforcement (5-2-2).

Here's an example: A 4th and 1 from the 50 (line to gain is B's 49). A1 advances to the B-40 where he throws an incomplete illegal forward pass (illegal because he was beyond the NZ). Enforce 5 yards from the spot of the foul. This leave the ball at the B-45, which is beyond the line to gain. 1st and 10 for A from the B-45