Would you call this????

sm_bbcoach · #1 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 16, 2003, 01:46pm

down and distance does not matter. But for agument 4/4 B12. A(K) attempts a FG. After the center puts his hands on the ball and players have taken theri place, B realizes there are 12 men on the field,no decption involved by B just confusion for special teams play, and B-47 runs off the field. As he runs, he crosses the NZ on the field in a mad dash to get off the field to his sideline before the snap. By rule this is encrochment 5 yds and in our example give A(K) its 1/G.

Do you call this? Player B-47 is NOT attempting to be part of the play, just get off the field. Seems like a cheap 1st down for HS kids confusion. But it is varsity.... Would you call illg sub if he did not get off the field , but crossed NZ before the snap? For what ever reason, B choose to not call TO thinking th eplayer can get off before the snap.

I know what I would do and what I would say to a coach, but what about you great FB minds?

Flag it or let it go.

MD Longhorn · #2 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 16, 2003, 01:54pm

Another of those interpretations that most would likely let go at lower levels. But at varsity, if this guy is on the field, behind the line, when the ball is snapped - it's a penalty. B should have coughed up a timeout if they couldn't get him off in time.

Incidentally, I don't think it's the act of crossing the NZ (unless this is called more strictly in NF than NCAA) that creates the penalty. It's not an immediate penalty (in NCAA) unless he's unabated to the QB. If he gets off the field (or perhaps at least behind that side's LJ or HL) before it's snapped, I think he's fine. (I do believe he has to get back upfield to the players box though --- he couldn't have simply run out of the EZ or straight out of bounds).

Also - some better teams have their centers or QB's (or holders) trained to spot encroachment or 12 on the field, and snap it. If he snaps it specifically to get the penalty, do you still have the same opinion about flagging it?

ump76 · #3 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 16, 2003, 01:59pm

let it go.

Warrenkicker · #4 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 16, 2003, 04:53pm

If he is on the field then get him for illegal substitution. Don't get for encroachment though.

We have been instructed in Kansas to try to get B with 12 before the snap. If they are trying to play with 12 then we try to stop the play before the snap. Their reasoning is that we always get A for 12 before the snap and never give them the chance to get the 15 yard IP foul. Being fair we are to try to get B with 12 before snap so they also only get 5 yard IS.

This is how we are TOLD to do it. My crew has never had 12 on B since they changed how we are to rule on this situation.

Rich · #5 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 16, 2003, 09:23pm

This is illegal substitution -- 5 yards. Get it before it is snapped. A player substituted for must leave the field IMMEDIATELY, regardless of whether it is offense or defense.

At the lower levels, I'd probably let a little more go, but on Friday night it's a dead ball flag.

Rich

JugglingReferee · #6 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 16, 2003, 10:06pm

Quote:

Originally posted by sm_bbcoach
down and distance does not matter. But for agument 4/4 B12. A(K) attempts a FG. After the center puts his hands on the ball and players have taken theri place, B realizes there are 12 men on the field,no decption involved by B just confusion for special teams play, and B-47 runs off the field. As he runs, he crosses the NZ on the field in a mad dash to get off the field to his sideline before the snap. By rule this is encrochment 5 yds and in our example give A(K) its 1/G.

Do you call this? Player B-47 is NOT attempting to be part of the play, just get off the field. Seems like a cheap 1st down for HS kids confusion. But it is varsity.... Would you call illg sub if he did not get off the field , but crossed NZ before the snap? For what ever reason, B choose to not call TO thinking th eplayer can get off before the snap.

I know what I would do and what I would say to a coach, but what about you great FB minds?

Flag it or let it go.

I'd let it go.

Bob M. · #7 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 17, 2003, 04:21pm

REPLY: To add to what others have said, if B's 12th guy is in the defensive formation for any more than a few seconds after his replacement enters, the BJ should have caught it and flagged it as a dead ball illegal substitution. It should never have gotten as far as your post says it did. If however, the replacement has just come on and the 12th guy is heading out, I would not call it encroachment. If he doesn't get off the field, it's an illegal substitution simultaneous with the snap.

Ed Hickland · #8 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 18, 2003, 06:32pm

Quote:

Originally posted by sm_bbcoach
down and distance does not matter. But for agument 4/4 B12. A(K) attempts a FG. After the center puts his hands on the ball and players have taken theri place, B realizes there are 12 men on the field,no decption involved by B just confusion for special teams play, and B-47 runs off the field. As he runs, he crosses the NZ on the field in a mad dash to get off the field to his sideline before the snap. By rule this is encrochment 5 yds and in our example give A(K) its 1/G.

Do you call this? Player B-47 is NOT attempting to be part of the play, just get off the field. Seems like a cheap 1st down for HS kids confusion. But it is varsity.... Would you call illg sub if he did not get off the field , but crossed NZ before the snap? For what ever reason, B choose to not call TO thinking th eplayer can get off before the snap.

I know what I would do and what I would say to a coach, but what about you great FB minds?

Flag it or let it go.

If there are 12 players on the field -- 1 more than allowed -- when the QB looks at the defense, B has gained the advantage of having a defense that confuses the QB.

Technically, the flag should be tossed when the substitute reported and no player left the field. If you give some latitude, try to get them to count their players. But by all means don't let the play go knowing 12 men are on the field.

In this case, by not flagging the substitution it only led to a deeper quandry when the replaced player ends up crossing the neutral zone.

BktBallRef · #9 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 18, 2003, 07:27pm

Quote:

Originally posted by sm_bbcoach
As he runs, he crosses the NZ on the field in a mad dash to get off the field to his sideline before the snap. By rule this is encrochment 5 yds and in our example give A(K) its 1/G.

By rule, it's NOT encroachment. The reference can be found in 7.1.6d. I won't post the entire play, since the ruling alone addresses this.

7.1.6d
RULING: It is not encroachment for the substitute to cross through the neutral zone. An entering substitute cannot encroach until after he has established himself as a player on his team's side of the neutral zone. If B1 is unable to get onside prior to the snap, it will be a foul for illegal substitution. This foul occurs simultaneously with the snap and if penalized would be administered from the previous spot. Similarly, it is not encroachment when a replaced player crosses the neutral zone in leaving the field. (2-30-15; 3-7-2, 6; 7-1-2; 10-4-2a)

With regards to flagging the illegal substitution, if the player realizes he shouldn't be in the game and is trying to get out, we don't flag it if he's sufficiently off the field. If I count 12 and see that the defense doesn't realize it, I'll flag it and kill it when it's obvious the ball is about to be snapped.