I booted it?????

[cmathews]

Ok here is the play. A throws a pass from its own 30, during the pass there is holding by A. The pass is intercepted at B40. After the interception there is a block in the back by B at the 50 B returns the ball to the B 45, also during the runback there is illegal use of hands by A. 10-2-1 it is a double foul.....during same live ball period.... With this being my first Varsity game as the white hat, I out thought myself. I portion that says same live ball period got locked into my brain as same possesion during live ball period, and since we had 2 fouls on A and 1 on B it just overloaded my former umpire brain...I made it a double foul and we replayed the down. Should have been B ball at B 35 right? Any comments would be welcomed. The only good thing is that it happened late in a game that was allready decided. A didn't make the line to gain on its next play, and B won the game 25-8 so no harm done except I booted it and I hate that...

[Smiley]

Whenever you have fouls by both teams in which there is a change of possession, simply ask yourself if the team that ended up with the ball did so with "clean hands". If so, they will get to keep the ball, but must decline all fouls by the opposing team and have their penalty enforced.

[cmathews]

Smiley, yep I agree, and will do that from now on...The penalties by A on both sides of the change of possesion, got me thinking too much....won't do that again..but I must admit that might be the first time I could be accused of thinking let alone too much LOL

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by cmathews
Ok here is the play. A throws a pass from its own 30, during the pass there is holding by A. The pass is intercepted at B40. After the interception there is a block in the back by B at the 50 B returns the ball to the B 45, also during the runback there is illegal use of hands by A. 10-2-1 it is a double foul.....during same live ball period.... With this being my first Varsity game as the white hat, I out thought myself. I portion that says same live ball period got locked into my brain as same possesion during live ball period, and since we had 2 fouls on A and 1 on B it just overloaded my former umpire brain...I made it a double foul and we replayed the down. Should have been B ball at B 35 right? Any comments would be welcomed. The only good thing is that it happened late in a game that was allready decided. A didn't make the line to gain on its next play, and B won the game 25-8 so no harm done except I booted it and I hate that...

[Sorry for the long post.]

Canadian Amateur Ruling:

Smiley's approach of 'clean hands' works well in the Canadian game as well.

Here's what I read from the play:

A throws a pass, is called for [holding]*, and then B INTs the pass. During the runback, B is called for a [block in the back]** and A is called for [illegal use of hands]***.

Let's determine the Canadian equivalents. First, (*) holding is holding. Next, (**) a block in the back seems like it could be either an illegal block or blocking from the rear; the penalties of which are different. Finally, the (***) illegal use of hands does not have a literal equivalent like holding does, but in our rulebook, an illegal block is defined as "illegal use of hands".

Having said that, since it seems that A's illegal hands foul in the original play is less severe that B's block in the back foul, let's assign B's foul in Canada to be blocking from the rear so that it maintains being more severe than A's illegal block foul when defined in Canada.

Ok, n-o-w (finally), we have:

B declining the A hold to take advantage of the INT.

After a change of possession, such as the INT, B's blocking from the rear foul (BFR) is penalized 15y from PBH (point ball held). So, the calling official needs to know where the ball was when the BFR happened. Since the INT was at the B40, then the BFR occured, then the ball carrier was tackled at the B45, let's say that PBH was the B42.

A's subsequent illegal block foul is 10y from PBH. A's foul could have occured while the ball was at the B42 (the same spot as B's BFR) or somewhere else. Assuming that A and B accept the two fouls involved, we have a dual foul, and the point of application is that of the first foul, that of B's BFR, so where the ball was at A's foul is irrelevant. A's illegal block foul is 10y.

Therefore,

Back 15y from PBH for B's foul: B42 ==> B27
Up 10y from the B27 for A's foul: B27 ==> B37.

So, B 1D/10 @ B37.

Alternatively, just take the difference between the 15y and 10y fouls and go back 5y, B42 - 5 = B37.

Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to type this all out so that any Cdn refs that wanted my logic would have it.

Best Regards,

Mike

[Ed Hickland]

I booted one of those in a JV game last year. Me and tow other varsity officials could nto figure it out and replayed the down.

At halftime we got a rule book and I could only shake my head.

[cmathews]

I did the same thing Ed, except ours happened in the second half and I shook my head after the game...and I will call the coach tonite and make sure he knows the correct call...