What would you do?

OKREF · #1 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 07, 2015, 03:00pm

I want to see what kind of answers I get, before I tell you how I handled this.

Yellow 22 is lying flat on the floor, on his stomach, as White 30 is running past, yellow 22 jumps up and tries to grab white 30 by the foot, trying to trip him, hard to tell if any contact was made, but if any was it was very slight, and not enough to make white 30 go to the floor, but the intent is clear. What would you do? Background. Late season playoff game, #1 vs #2.

ODog · #2 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 07, 2015, 04:45pm

Unsportsmanlike technical at minimum, but depending on what I saw, I'd lean toward a flagrant T ("technical noncontact foul which displays unacceptable conduct") and just send this kid on his way.

This safely falls under the broad umbrella of unacceptable conduct.

mtn335 · #3 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 07, 2015, 06:02pm

This is an act that is clearly "non-basketball" and severely endangers the safety of the opponent. I agree that it's unacceptable conduct and warrants a flagrant technical foul.

Now, would I have the chutzpah to do this (correctly, as I sit here in abstract judgement) in a game? I'm skeptical.

Nevadaref · #4 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 07, 2015, 07:30pm

Either nothing or an unsporting technical foul. If the offense zips past the fallen defender without an issue and has an easy score, you can leave this attempted trip alone and have a word with the player/coach at the next stoppage.
If the offense doesn't have a clearly advantageous situation, then penalize the defender for his action.

OKREF · #5 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 07, 2015, 09:08pm

First. White 30 did not have the ball. This was a missed shot by yellow, this play happened in the backcourt at the free throw line.

This is what I did. Gave yellow 22 a technical foul for a non sporting act. Had he actually mad contact and tripped him up, I was going with a flagrant foul.

BktBallRef · #6 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 07, 2015, 09:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by OKREF

First. White 30 did not have the ball. This was a missed shot by yellow, this play happened in the backcourt at the free throw line.

This is what I did. Gave yellow 22 a technical foul for a non sporting act. Had he actually mad contact and tripped him up, I was going with a flagrant foul.

If a defender runs at a 3 point shooter and ducks his head towards his knees as he goes by, would you assess a technical foul?

OKREF · #7 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 07, 2015, 10:41pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

If a defender runs at a 3 point shooter and ducks his head towards his knees as he goes by, would you assess a technical foul?

Maybe, if I felt it was a deliberate, non basketball act.

Nevadaref · #8 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 07, 2015, 10:55pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by OKREF

First. White 30 did not have the ball. This was a missed shot by yellow, this play happened in the backcourt at the free throw line.

This is what I did. Gave yellow 22 a technical foul for a non sporting act. Had he actually mad contact and tripped him up, I was going with a flagrant foul.

Whether this act is flagrant or not shouldn't have anything to do with the player's success or failure to make contact with his opponent.

For example, a punch that misses and a punch that lands are both flagrant.

In my opinion, if you were going to issue a flagrant personal foul had the tripper been successful, then you should have issued a flagrant technical foul for attempt which didn't make contact.

OKREF · #9 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 08, 2015, 07:45am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Whether this act is flagrant or not shouldn't have anything to do with the player's success or failure to make contact with his opponent.

For example, a punch that misses and a punch that lands are both flagrant.

In my opinion, if you were going to issue a flagrant personal foul had the tripper been successful, then you should have issued a flagrant technical foul for attempt which didn't make contact.

Fair enough. Coach never said a word, kid got up and went directly to bench and was subbed for. He knew what he did. My initial thought was a technical foul, but did consider ejection.

BktBallRef · #10 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 08, 2015, 12:24pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by OKREF

Maybe, if I felt it was a deliberate, non basketball act.

Lol. I've never seen a player accidentally do this.

BryanV21 · #11 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 08, 2015, 09:35pm

This might be a "had to be there" situation, because I'm leaving this alone.

Some here make it sound like it was a fighting act (the comparison to a missed punch), while it initially sounded to me like a possible intentional foul if contact was made. Unless, like I said, the grab was a fighting act in which I've got a flagrant tech w/ ejection.

#12 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 08, 2015, 11:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Lol. I've never seen a player accidentally do this.

Are you referring to the OP play or the play you suggested?

Nevadaref · #13 (**permalink**) Thu Jul 09, 2015, 12:20am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BryanV21

This might be a "had to be there" situation, because I'm leaving this alone.

Some here make it sound like it was a fighting act (the comparison to a missed punch), while it initially sounded to me like a possible intentional foul if contact was made. Unless, like I said, the grab was a fighting act in which I've got a flagrant tech w/ ejection.

Has nothing to do with fighting.
I made the point that the observing official needs to make the decision on flagrant or not based upon the act itself, not whether contact is made with the opponent.
If you believe that a deliberate trip is only intentional, then that's fine.

Lastly, fighting involving contact during a live ball is a flagrant personal foul.

BillyMac · #14 (**permalink**) Thu Jul 09, 2015, 06:17am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

... fighting involving contact during a live ball is a flagrant personal foul.

Just to confirm. If a punch is thrown, and doesn't connect, then there's no contact? Right? So, if it was during a live ball, then it would be a technical foul? Right?

BryanV21 · #15 (**permalink**) Thu Jul 09, 2015, 10:16am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Has nothing to do with fighting.
I made the point that the observing official needs to make the decision on flagrant or not based upon the act itself, not whether contact is made with the opponent.
If you believe that a deliberate trip is only intentional, then that's fine.

Lastly, fighting involving contact during a live ball is a flagrant personal foul.

The reason I brought up the "fighting act" thing is that grabbing an opponent is not necessarily grounds for an ejection. There have been plenty of times somebody grabs an opponent to prevent them from getting open for a pass, or to stop the clock by fouling at the end of a game. Those instances may be grounds for an intentional foul, but rarely for an ejection. And that's what I'm saying.

I would have had to be there to see the intent behind one player trying to grab the other. Did he do it to stop the player from advancing? Did he do it to try and hurt the other player? Those aren't irrelevant questions.