What would you do?

[OKREF]

I want to see what kind of answers I get, before I tell you how I handled this.


Yellow 22 is lying flat on the floor, on his stomach, as White 30 is running past, yellow 22 jumps up and tries to grab white 30 by the foot, trying to trip him, hard to tell if any contact was made, but if any was it was very slight, and not enough to make white 30 go to the floor, but the intent is clear. What would you do? Background. Late season playoff game, #1 vs #2.

[ODog]

Unsportsmanlike technical at minimum, but depending on what I saw, I'd lean toward a flagrant T ("technical noncontact foul which displays unacceptable conduct") and just send this kid on his way.

This safely falls under the broad umbrella of unacceptable conduct.

[mtn335]

This is an act that is clearly "non-basketball" and severely endangers the safety of the opponent. I agree that it's unacceptable conduct and warrants a flagrant technical foul.

Now, would I have the chutzpah to do this (correctly, as I sit here in abstract judgement) in a game? I'm skeptical.

[Nevadaref]

Either nothing or an unsporting technical foul. If the offense zips past the fallen defender without an issue and has an easy score, you can leave this attempted trip alone and have a word with the player/coach at the next stoppage.
If the offense doesn't have a clearly advantageous situation, then penalize the defender for his action.

[OKREF]

First. White 30 did not have the ball. This was a missed shot by yellow, this play happened in the backcourt at the free throw line.

This is what I did. Gave yellow 22 a technical foul for a non sporting act. Had he actually mad contact and tripped him up, I was going with a flagrant foul.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by OKREF

First. White 30 did not have the ball. This was a missed shot by yellow, this play happened in the backcourt at the free throw line.

This is what I did. Gave yellow 22 a technical foul for a non sporting act. Had he actually mad contact and tripped him up, I was going with a flagrant foul.

If a defender runs at a 3 point shooter and ducks his head towards his knees as he goes by, would you assess a technical foul?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by OKREF

First. White 30 did not have the ball. This was a missed shot by yellow, this play happened in the backcourt at the free throw line.

This is what I did. Gave yellow 22 a technical foul for a non sporting act. Had he actually mad contact and tripped him up, I was going with a flagrant foul.

Whether this act is flagrant or not shouldn't have anything to do with the player's success or failure to make contact with his opponent.

For example, a punch that misses and a punch that lands are both flagrant.

In my opinion, if you were going to issue a flagrant personal foul had the tripper been successful, then you should have issued a flagrant technical foul for attempt which didn't make contact.

[Mregor]

Originally Posted by OKREF

I want to see what kind of answers I get, before I tell you how I handled this.


Yellow 22 is lying flat on the floor, on his stomach, as White 30 is running past, yellow 22 jumps up and tries to grab white 30 by the foot, trying to trip him, hard to tell if any contact was made, but if any was it was very slight, and not enough to make white 30 go to the floor, but the intent is clear. What would you do? Background. Late season playoff game, #1 vs #2.

I got nothing. Intent has no bearing unless there is a foul. Sounds like you aren't even sure there was contact. If I thought he tried to trip, I'd talk to coach and let him/her know if he had succeeded, he would be in the showers, but you can't penalize on intent alone.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Mregor

I got nothing. Intent has no bearing unless there is a foul. Sounds like you aren't even sure there was contact. If I thought he tried to trip, I'd talk to coach and let him/her know if he had succeeded, he would be in the showers, but you can't penalize on intent alone.

Your response is inaccurate.
If A1 attempts to strike B1 with his fist or elbow during a live ball, but B1 is able to duck or dodge the intended blow, A1 still committed a foul and the official has the authority to penalize it.

[Mregor]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Your response is inaccurate.
If A1 attempts to strike B1 with his fist or elbow during a live ball, but B1 is able to duck or dodge the intended blow, A1 still committed a foul and the official has the authority to penalize it.

(unnecessary personal shot deleted) And you are correct, fighting doesn't need contact and if the player who allegedly was allegedly tripped retaliated and took a swing at the defender on the ground, they both would be charged with fighting as his act caused the opponent to retaliate, regardless if he grabbed his foot or not. Again, that's not the what happened. OP wasn't even sure if there was contact. Without contact, I still have nothing regardless of so called intent. I'd talk to coach and let him handle it.

Years ago I gave a flagrant T to a kid based on what I thought was intent. Still regret it as in hindsight, I'm not 100% sure. Usually the only T's I regret are the ones I don't issue.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Mregor

(quoted personal attack deleted) And you are correct, fighting doesn't need contact and if the player who allegedly was allegedly tripped retaliated and took a swing at the defender on the ground, they both would be charged with fighting as his act caused the opponent to retaliate, regardless if he grabbed his foot or not. Again, that's not the what happened. OP wasn't even sure if there was contact. Without contact, I still have nothing regardless of so called intent. I'd talk to coach and let him handle it.

Years ago I gave a flagrant T to a kid based on what I thought was intent. Still regret it as in hindsight, I'm not 100% sure. Usually the only T's I regret are the ones I don't issue.

(reference to personal shot deleted)

Now if you want to be precise, your reply above contains a generality which should be cleaned up. Not just any act which causes an opponent to retaliate by fighting would get classified by rule as fighting itself, but rather only an unsporting act which causes that retaliation. So if an official did not deem the attempted trip to be unsporting or an actual trip involving contact wasn't ruled flagrant on its own (perhaps the official only charged a normal personal foul or an intentional personal foul), then any fighting retaliation would not cause the original fouler to be automatically DQ'd by rule.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Now if you want to be precise, your reply above contains a generality which should be cleaned up. Not just any act which causes an opponent to retaliate by fighting would get classified by rule as fighting itself, but rather only an unsporting act which causes that retaliation. So if an official did not deem the attempted trip to be unsporting or an actual trip involving contact (perhaps the official only charged a personal foul), then any fighting retaliation would not cause the original fouler to be automatically DQ'd by rule.

Interesting.
B1 swipes at A1's foot and misses (official rules this an unsporting technical foul), A2 retaliates with a punch.

B1 swipes at A1's foot and makes contact (intentional foul), A2 retaliates with a punch.

We only get to toss them both if B1 misses.

Originally Posted by Mregor

Years ago I gave a flagrant T to a kid based on what I thought was intent. Still regret it as in hindsight, I'm not 100% sure. Usually the only T's I regret are the ones I don't issue.

New refs please don't do what Mregor and I did. I too ejected a kid (A1) a couple years ago for fighting for taking a swipe at another kid's (B1) hand cuz A1 was being held. I ejected A1 and gave B1 a tech for "instigating" a fight and it was a bitch to explain to the coaches. Still probably the worst decision of my basketball career.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by Mregor

I got nothing. Intent has no bearing unless there is a foul. Sounds like you aren't even sure there was contact. If I thought he tried to trip, I'd talk to coach and let him/her know if he had succeeded, he would be in the showers, but you can't penalize on intent alone.

I'm certainly going to have something. This play was a done intentional and with intent. I wish I knew how to embed. I just went back and looked at the video. It was off a missed shot, the White team player did have the ball an d the defensive player was on the ground and actually lunged and did make contact with the foot.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by OKREF

I'm certainly going to have something. This play was a done intentional and with intent. I wish I knew how to embed. I just went back and looked at the video. It was off a missed shot, the White team player did have the ball an d the defensive player was on the ground and actually lunged and did make contact with the foot.

In that case, I'd probably go with an intentional personal foul, or a flagrant personal foul.