NFHS 2015-16 Points of Emphasis

[Nevadaref]

Someone please provide a citation from the NFHS RULES stating that 2e is illegal.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Someone please provide a citation from the NFHS RULES stating that 2e is illegal.

Like anything else, wouldn't it depend on the contact? One player reaching/leaning into the adjoining space, if not addressed it may escalate to the point where the arm or jersey is grabbed before or simultaneously with the release.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Someone please provide a citation from the NFHS RULES stating that 2e is illegal.

8-4-g. not more than one player can occupy lane space. if two players are touching it is likely one of them is in the other space.

AND, after thinking about it for few seconds..they are talking about the second slot moving in early or the first slot doing same. those are violations that need to be enforced.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by BigCat

8-4-g. not more than one player can occupy lane space. if two players are touching it is likely one of them is in the other space.

AND, after thinking about it for few seconds..they are talking about the second slot moving in early or the first slot doing same. those are violations that need to be enforced.

Nevada's right. Occupying a space and making contact with an opponent are two different things. Other than positioning the lane space restrictions are 9-1-3d and 9-1-3g. Neither of those mentions anything about making contact with an opponent. If there's illegal contact, call a foul.

Originally Posted by just another ref

Like anything else, wouldn't it depend on the contact? One player reaching/leaning into the adjoining space, if not addressed it may escalate to the point where the arm or jersey is grabbed before or simultaneously with the release.

And if that happens, call the foul. They'll stop.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

Nevada's right. Occupying a space and making contact with an opponent are two different things. Other than positioning the lane space restrictions are 9-1-3d and 9-1-3g. Neither of those mentions anything about making contact with an opponent. If there's illegal contact, call a foul.




And if that happens, call the foul. They'll stop.

So I can be in the first slot and lift my right leg and lay it across your left leg or place my right arm against your chest? I disagree. a player has a space. verticality applies. if a player lifts an arm or leg into the other space (even if not touching ground) im going to tell them immediately to knock it off. if they dont i will call the violation. (or put delayed violation sign out etc. )

Again, i think they are after the players going all in early as opposed to guys in the spaces making a bit of contact with hands arms...

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by BigCat

So I can be in the first slot and lift my right leg and lay it across your left leg or place my right arm against your chest? I disagree. a player has a space. verticality applies. if a player lifts an arm or leg into the other space (even if not touching ground) im going to tell them immediately to knock it off. if they dont i will call the violation. (or put delayed violation sign out etc. )

Again, i think they are after the players going all in early as opposed to guys in the spaces making a bit of contact with hands arms...

1. The first line under Verticality in NF 4-45 says "Verticality applies to a legal position." By rule there is (generally) nothing illegal about just touching someone - during a FT or otherwise.

2. The situation you describe of "lift(ing) my right leg and lay(ing) it across your left leg)" is already a violation under 9-1-3g because a player would have to move their right foot beyond the edge of their lane space. So by all means, call the violation.

3. A player moving their arm into someone else's lane space is not a violation by rule. If there's enough contact it may be a foul. If that's the case, call the foul.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

1. The first line under Verticality in NF 4-45 says "Verticality applies to a legal position." By rule there is (generally) nothing illegal about just touching someone - during a FT or otherwise.

2. The situation you describe of "lift(ing) my right leg and lay(ing) it across your left leg)" is already a violation under 9-1-3g because a player would have to move their right foot beyond the edge of their lane space. So by all means, call the violation.

3. A player moving their arm into someone else's lane space is not a violation by rule. If there's enough contact it may be a foul. If that's the case, call the foul.

you are right. the arm isn't a violation. my screw up.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BigCat

... the arm isn't a violation.

Don't beat yourself up.

Back when I served on our local board's floor training committee, we had a highly ranked, veteran, trainer who told the rookies that it was a violation for a player, on the lane line, to put an arm through the plane of the lane line marks. It took everything in my power to convince him that he was wrong. He didn't go down easy, he went down kicking, and screaming, but I eventually convinced him that he was wrong.

Sometimes officials just develop these mental blocks. After all, there are a lot of rules, and some of them keep changing all the time.

Now? Where are my car keys?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BigCat

So I can be in the first slot and lift my right leg and lay it across your left leg or place my right arm against your chest? I disagree. a player has a space. verticality applies. if a player lifts an arm or leg into the other space (even if not touching ground) im going to tell them immediately to knock it off. if they dont i will call the violation. (or put delayed violation sign out etc. ).

Excuse me, but what violation are you calling when a player sticks his arm into the neighboring lane space (either with or without contact)?

[Stat-Man]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

{C}all the foul. They'll stop.

I had this happen in a MS-G game almost two years ago. The jostling contact between A1 & B1 was enough enough in my judgment to call a double foul. The fans didn't like it, the coaches seemed confused, but my partner said it was a good call.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BigCat

8-4-g. not more than one player can occupy lane space. if two players are touching it is likely one of them is in the other space.

AND, after thinking about it for few seconds..they are talking about the second slot moving in early or the first slot doing same. those are violations that need to be enforced.

You are speaking of calling a violation. POE #2 is instructing officials to call fouls when the listed items occur. Vastly different and my contention is that 2e cannot be justified by the rules. No where within them is a simple touch of an opponent in a neighboring FT lane space stated to be a foul.
A POE during a previous season made the same comment and I wrote then that it was not accurate. This is nothing more than someone attempting to create a ruling through their editorial position or task of crafting the language for the POEs.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

You are speaking of calling a violation. POE #2 is instructing officials to call fouls when the listed items occur. Vastly different and my contention is that 2e cannot be justified by the rules. No where within them is a simple touch of an opponent in a neighboring FT lane space stated to be a foul.
A POE during a previous season made the same comment and I wrote then that it was not accurate. This is nothing more than someone attempting to create a ruling through their editorial position or task of crafting the language for the POEs.

Poe 1, clearly is calling for fouls. Poe 2 says "Illegal activity" includes....Not necessarily requiring foul call. They could have said again in 2 that it is a foul....

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BigCat

Poe 1, clearly is calling for fouls. Poe 2 says "Illegal activity" includes....Not necessarily requiring foul call. They could have said again in 2 that it is a foul....

1. The items listed in 2a through 2d all clearly pertain to fouls not violations, yet you contend that e is different. I don't agree.

2. The text of 2e begins "Contact between players..." Please name one single example of contact between players resulting in a violation. (Or you can just admit that you are wrong.)

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

1. The items listed in 2a through 2d all clearly pertain to fouls not violations, yet you contend that e is different. I don't agree.

2. The text of 2e begins "Contact between players..." Please name one single example of contact between players resulting in a violation. (Or you can just admit that you are wrong.)

law school 101. number 1 specifically says the following are "fouls." POE 2 say the following are "illegal activity." i agree a -d are fouls. e, contact between players in a lane space before free thrower releases ball --can be violation or foul.

consider that in the context of what we see happening in high school now---second lane spot may move in early and shove first under. first may hit second early to keep him from pushing him under.

the poe is telling you to watch for "illegal activity" in that situation. doesnt mean you have to call a foul. get the person who goes in early.

[OKREF]

It says properly enforced and penalized. Which means the enforcement could be a violation or a foul, whichever one applies to the situation. The way I see 2E, is that in those times that a player reaches across the vertical edge of his lane boundary into the opponents lane spot and makes contact, it should be a violation. By getting this when it happens, it will stop any further activity once the shot goes up.