Wisconsin vs. Duke - National Championship - Master Thread
 

Getting ready to hop in the car and head to Indianapolis. Time to be a fanboy.

Thanks to the Kentucky fans who sold us their tickets for well under face value, too. LOL.

If I get any kind of a signal in the building, I'll post video requests, observations, etc. via Tapatalk.

This is a little ironic. At the assisted living center where I reside here in Portland, we have a rabbi whose last name is Kaminsky. Since he's about 5'7", I don't think he ever played college basketball. Maybe he was on the team at rabbinical school, though.


No relation.

http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townn...review-300.jpg

Frank K went to a Catholic School in Lisle, Illinois. ;)

Peace

So you don't think he's one of the surviving Nephilim, eh?

Team?
 

Pray tell, for which team do you plan to be a fanboy?

As one might infer, I'm a Duke fan. It's awesome they are in this game and I'm hoping for another win over Wisconsin. I'm leery of the way Frank K and Dekker are playing right now but I really think Duke wins this tonight in a tight game. I would much rather them win in a blowout but a win is a win.

I'm about 1000% sure Rich won't be rooting for coach Krewshawoooski tonight. :)

The only big question is if UW will be able to flop as much as Duke! :eek::D

If an official in the D1 championship can change his mind on a foul mid-signal, it makes me feel less bad about doing it now and then :)

<iframe src="https://player.vimeo.com/video/124264853" width="500" height="281" frameborder="0" webkitallowfullscreen mozallowfullscreen allowfullscreen></iframe> <p><a href="https://vimeo.com/124264853">Lead changes mind :)</a> from <a href="https://vimeo.com/user24828619">Rich Harrington</a> on <a href="https://vimeo.com">Vimeo</a>.</p>

You're right about that. They're human too.

Video Request, Second Half.
 

Sorry I do not have the time.

Very first Wisconsin foul in the second half.

The Duke player lowered his shoulder and then got a foul call on the shooting motion. It was somewhere in the 18:00 range. Should be easy to find.

Peace

While I don't work basketball, I figured someone would ask for that...

<iframe src="https://player.vimeo.com/video/124267630" width="500" height="281" frameborder="0" webkitallowfullscreen mozallowfullscreen allowfullscreen></iframe>

Block called on Wisconsin, 9:07 second half.

Block call on Wisconsin around 9:07. Tough call coming across the lane.

PC, it's almost an automatic block these days. I don't know what the defense did wrong.

Brutal call

No way was that a FF1. Totally clean move to the hoop.

I agree - defender had LGP and was stepping backwards when he was run over...

Right, but also not a foul on the defense.

I've seen a lot of poor calls/no-calls

Yep....just saw another one - Okafor should have picked up his 5th...

Their not calling the fifth on him, just blew another video replay. Ball clearly out on Duke.

Atrocious. Three blown in a row.

This one?

<iframe src="https://player.vimeo.com/video/124269659" width="500" height="281" frameborder="0" webkitallowfullscreen mozallowfullscreen allowfullscreen></iframe>

Foul on Wisconsin on the Duke run out? Maybe.

Who wanted that to be a FF1?

Unfortunate to have such a great game come down to the officiating.

Why waste time with a review rule if it's not going to be properly applied?

You and everyone who isn't a Duke fan is wondering the same thing.

What a dumbass.

The game came down to two freshman that made plays. Officiating had nothing to do with this game.

BTW, I was cheering for Wisconsin all the way.

Peace

I agree. Duke made the plays to win. There were some tough calls, but there are tough calls in any game. I stand by my critique of the review, however. I don't understand how millions of people sitting at home can see who is the last to touch the ball but the 3 people that matter cannot. I'm guessing they didn't get the same angles at the same slow motion that the audience got.

Everyone in America? I had a debate with my girlfriend about if it touched the Duke player. So not sure how everyone sees it that way. There was only one angle that was definitive. And it was a close call that only replay would have caught the touch. It was that close. Sorry, but I am sure there was a lot of debate over that call. And they seemed to only show that replay once that confirmed even a touch.

Peace

Rut, the replay showed the ball was clearly off the Duke player. Two angles showed it. How those three guys choose not to see it is unexplainable. If the angle was definitive as you say, how did they not reverse the call?

Bo says (CBS post-game interview)...
 

"You just have to able to hands and the checking. There was more body contact than any game we played all year, and I just feel sorry for my guys that, all of a sudden, a game was like that. They (UW players) are struggling with that a little.... It's a shame it had to be played that way."

Bo Ryan post game
 

Just listened to his post game on CBS....up 9 and indirectly blaming referees....cmon!!!! You got beat by two freshman....Wisconsin for years beat the crap out of people in B10 play. We are discussing 4 - 6 calls in the 2nd half. I give the crew a solid B....

Bo Ryan

Exactly right. I'm not criticizing the call in real time. But as soon as the monitor is turned around, then the level of expected accuracy goes up significantly.

I saw the game. I saw the replays. Only one replay was definitive and without knowing what they were shown, they might not have seen that angle. I hope you do understand that the TV feeds are not necessarily the same angles they show to the officials. And I only saw that angle once and for some reason on the TV they went away from the angle. Sorry, but not sure what you were seeing. We had a dispute in my house over what was the call.

Peace

How many did they need?

This was discussed at some of the conference D1 clinics last fall. For some reason, I'm not that far up the totem pole to know, but the monitor doesn't show every angle that they can produce from the CBS truck....that being said, I'm assuming they didn't have that particular angle....and they went with what they were given...

A big guy who can put the ball on the floor, like Kaminsky, is a great beneficiary of the current (non)travel rule in the NCAA. Case in point is the move at the 9:20 mark which picked up Okafor's 4th foul.

Do you know what they saw? If you don't then stop telling everyone what they missed. My point is only one angle showed a fingertip and not much of a touch at that. You need the right one, not the one you think shows the play. They have time and pressure to make a decision.

Peace

Same happens in the NFL. The TV angles shown are not shown the same to the monitors on the field.

Peace

Good call...arms no where near vertical.

Despite the fit Ryan was pitching about that play, there wasn't anything close to a FF1 on the play. You can't call a FF1 on a shooter because the defender rammed his face into the shooters elbow as the shooter was going up.

We have a winner!!!

The program they use for the replay is DV Sports.
D-I Basketball Championships to use Advanced Timing, Replay Technologies - DVSport Software

I've used this system and they claim to use "HD" monitors but they are NOT very good and are pixelated. They replay shots from the truck are NOT quickly relayed to the DV Sports system. It is NOT a streamline process between the director in the TV truck and the DV Sports operator for the replay. Even if they did show the best replay angle to the crew on the floor where Winslow appears to have tipped the ball, the monitors would not show enough clarity that it did.

Hope Rich Boyages sends Driscoll to Wisconsin's first home game next year....

I don't know what possible debate there could be on this. Only one angle really showed it, sure, but that angle was ABSOLUTELY UNDENIABLY definitive. I'm not going to blame the officials entirely as we don't know what angles were made available to them, but there should be no dispute whatsoever what the correct call should have been. If they didn't see that one view, then no way the call should be overturned, and they got it right. But if they saw that one? Then it's a big mistake

And that one wasn't even close. It was so far from being close, he traveled twice on the same move before the foul. No wonder Okafor couldn't keep position.

And his team didn't do any of this contact? (and if they didn't why didn't they?) Wisconsin had 2 team fouls the whole first half. I don't think they were hurt by the officiating.

The officials are supposed to be getting the same angles we get at home correct? If so I was watching at home and thought it should've been Wisconsin ball out of bounds.

Out of all the calls all night, I hated this call. To me the Duke player shoved his shoulder and caused the Wisconsin player to "bow" and IMO this should have been a no call.

Peace

True. This is an old story with a relatively new way to complain about it. I've been explaining to people for thirty years why the foul is on the player with the blood on his face.

"He literally stuck his nose where it didn't belong."

You would hope so but sometimes they do not thanks to the DV Sports system that is used by the NCAA.

DI basketball championships to use advanced timing, replay technologies | NCAA.com

So many travels.

Is this abcdef again? Go away.

Because they don't play that style. They simply don't foul much.


See above.

If you are talking about the out of bounds call, there was not enough to overrun it. You can't tell if the hand touched the ball.

Yes you can, it was very clearly off Duke. Officials may not have gotten to see that angle, but it clearly went off Duke

You most certainly can on at least one, probably two angles.

I never saw the direction of the ball change. His hand could have been behind the ball but not touching it.

So his finger magically bent backwards? He must have different physiology than every other human being on earth so that he could do that on his own.

You must not have seen the definitive angle then. As he swipes for the ball, his fingers bend backwards as he makes contact

One of the biggest keys to success in any sport is the ability to make adjustments during the game. And yes, officiating is something one must sometimes adjust to.

Dahoopref,

Can I be expecting a prize soon for the correct answer?? Perhaps an officiating.com t shirt ???

This is what I don't like about this site....we are talking about a ball touching a freakin finger tip.....Can we discuss 10.1.4 or Begin,develop, finish.....how about consistency and crew dynamics.....

Guess I won't talk about the above til Mike Stephens camp this summer....Driscoll will be there as well.....

(NOT talking about this play)

Begin, develop, and finish or consistency don't matter much if a person doesn't know the fundamentals of an infraction when it is right in front of them.

This. I was sitting about a mile away and didn't need to see the replay to say,, "Bronson stuck his face where it didn't belong. Easy call."

Back to the Dayton no call thread. I'm saying both calls were very similar as far as verticality goes, but for some reason Dayton didn't draw a foul and this did.

IIRC, the difference is in what the shooter did. One went out of his way to get to contact. The other took the ball up normally.

I'm trying to remember the last Final Four game decided on a game ending buzzer beater. Nantz has done 75 Final Four games and I do not think he has ever had one of those.

Three officiating decisions stood out to me. There were others which can be debated, but overall the crew did a good job.
The three plays to me which are difficult to comprehend that FF officials missed were the blocking foul called on Wisconsin by Derosa with about 9 minutes left. (Video of this has already been posted above in this thread.) I have a clear chargin foul on Duke's Winslow.
The play with around 4:15 left in which the Duke player steps on the endline, then passes to Okafor who is fouled by Kaminsky and scores.
The OOB call reviewed at 1:51. (Already discussed at length above.). Hard in real time or with an unclear video monitor, but if the NCAA is going to have video review for OOB calls under two minutes, then the system needs to be improved so that these calls are correct. Unfortunately, this one was not.

That block call is the same call DeRosa made at the end of the UK-ND game.

You don't have very good vision then.

I've never understood why basketball tries to do a replay review courtside on monitors smaller than my laptop screen. If we aren't going to have a replay official, can we at least have a big screen HD monitor just off the court for them to use?

It's simply unacceptable to go to review and get it wrong, but I don't know how they could have gotten it right with the monitor they had to use.

Agree, and I like your way of putting it. His arms were forced into being not so vertical. Winslow not only bulled his way directly into the chest of a legal defender, he shoved him with the ball too, even if much more subtly than Sabonis in the Elite 8.

And because the result went in his favor, Winslow figured he'd go a step further and literally run right through and over a legal defender (Dukan) in the second half ... and he got the call then, too!

Your 2 cents worth?

I thought they were supposed to be going to an HD replay system for the final four. Anyways, the only definitive replay video shown on TV, they had to zoom in on it to see it.

More like a B-/C+. A lot of reaching across the paint by the Leads on marginal contact, and a few RSBQ plays on the ball-handler that were not called; plus missing Winslow stepping OOB.

You have the wrong play.

Not quite. But this one's been banned along with the other 2 usernames created by the same person, including one used to PM me about the other banned usernames.

But John Adams has also said that the officials and TV producers need to work together to ensure the officials get shown all the angles.

Probably? There were either 2 definitive angles or not. Can't say probably.

That's coach-talk.

Not even close to the same. Pull up both videos side-by-side and you will see that.

Yours wouldn't be either if I slammed a shoulder into your chest. There were three calls that stick out to me after watching this game. This 'verticality' call, the "block" at 9:07 and the out of bounds review that wasn't conclusive enough.

+1

I don't get the overall official bashing this morning from Bo Ryan to 'Mike n Mike':confused: I thought, as in most cases, things went a little both ways and had a way of evening out. Ryan's a bit overboard in some of his comments, but I'll give him the "heat of the moment" and that he's standing up for his players, but if not for a missed shot clock violation Saturday, Wisc MAY not of even been playing last night.

Well, not a good excuse, but WORSE? EVER? I'll bet some would have a good time with that one:D

:) I'll clarify. Worst excuse that people try to actually use on a regular basis.

No T-shirt, but they'll give you an officiating.com jockstrap. Be sure to indicate your size. ;)

Replay views
 

Another take on the not to overturn after review play: Is there a chance the calling official passed on a foul on the Wisconsin player (for contact on Winslow after he had his hands on rebound), awarded the ball to Duke, and then discussed it with his partners while they were in review? What do you do in that case anyway? I'm guessing some of you will say "Don't pass on the foul in that sitch", but given the chance, wouldn't most?

I think that is rather unlikely in a replay situation.

I just think it is very possible they did not see the view that was the most definitive and not all the angles were definitive.

Peace

Pass on a foul?? No.

That's old school thinking and is no longer an option at this level.

I highly, highly doubt that justification works when your game is on national TV.

Best bet, they didn't get a definitive view when they went to the monitor.

I don't think so, as Ryan was screaming at the officials to go to the monitor after the play (a time out was called after the play). Seemed to me he wanted a flagrant called on the shooter for going into his player's face.

That was the Jones/Koenig play, not the Winslow play.

Inner Will Farrell
 

Old School? well, they passed on a "force out" moments before on Winslow stepping on baseline:D

IMO I've seen NBA games better officiated. It just seemed to me that at times the officials were reluctant to call fouls in key moments, and on players on both sides. I doubt it was intentional as it's a pretty stressful position they were in, but their threshold for call/no-calls was confusing at best. Why even have a PC foul in the rule book if it's enforced so inconsistently and piss poorly, and most importantly to me is how does the lead miss an OOB call. On baseline drives in 3 person that's like priority #1.

Either way the officiating didn't effect the outcome. Duke made adjustments and Wisconsin didn't.

Oh, sorry

I would hope so.