Camps in NC, SC. VA

[Rich]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I love Gregg's 3-person philosophies. I used to be against them, but the more I employ them, the better I see plays.



Also, I sent you a private message.

It's OK for you to share here. I'm always up for some learning.


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[DRJ1960]

Originally Posted by Rich

It's OK for you to share here. I'm always up for some learning.


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I'll second that

[crosscountry55]

It's an NBA-ish philosophy (which all college officials will get to know and love if Joe DeRosa takes over for John Adams). Watch what Joe does, particularly once he becomes the C.

The philosophy starts with ball lines. Stay outside the ball lines; always be on the outside looking in.

As for L rotations, don't go simply based on quantity of players. Go because there's either something to officiate or (if you have a good feel for the game) because you anticipate there will be something to officiate. The keys to rotation are a competitive matchup in the post and/or a player on the opposite wing with a teammate either in the corner or moving to the corner. The latter key assumes the offense is setting up for a tray or a baseline drive, and you want to be there to either officiate strong-side rebounding or the drive to the basket. If the keys aren't there, don't rotate. The action is sparse and open enough for the C to handle.

The C should A) one-step open low or open high to get a good look between players, with the priority on opening low if at all possible, and B) not be in a hurry to go back to T if the L rotates to C's side. Stay and officiate! Two C's is not at all bad. The ball is moving to the basket in our game; never move away from where the ball is destined to go unless absolutely necessary. Get angles with subtle movements rather than big ones; it's easier to see plays when you're standing still rather than moving around. Besides, player motion is so erratic and constant in the modern game that the moment you try to get an angle it will probably disappear. So you might as well let the players create the angles for you. They always do.

The T can start in the traditional position, but as the lateral ball line moves in, move in with it. Should you need to transition to C, you'll be that much closer. And once you've moved in, even if you don't rotate to C, stay in, because the ball is probably still headed for the basket (the object is to score, after all). Only if the offense completely resets should the T back out and start over.

So there ya' go.

[Lcubed48]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

So there ya' go.

Well said, CC55. Gregg would be proud.

[Lcubed48]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

Only potential downside is that it's the same weekend as the VHSL teaching camp, so if you're VHSL and you have long-term HS playoff aspirations, this camp should probably be your priority.

I've attended both camps multiple times, and both are great camps. IMO, it depends on where you are on the learning cycle of the 3-person system. If you
are beginning the learning process, the VHSL camp is the one to choose. Later after gaining experience, the D3 camp would be my choice.

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

It's an NBA-ish philosophy (which all college officials will get to know and love if Joe DeRosa takes over for John Adams). Watch what Joe does, particularly once he becomes the C.

The philosophy starts with ball lines. Stay outside the ball lines; always be on the outside looking in.

As for L rotations, don't go simply based on quantity of players. Go because there's either something to officiate or (if you have a good feel for the game) because you anticipate there will be something to officiate. The keys to rotation are a competitive matchup in the post and/or a player on the opposite wing with a teammate either in the corner or moving to the corner. The latter key assumes the offense is setting up for a tray or a baseline drive, and you want to be there to either officiate strong-side rebounding or the drive to the basket. If the keys aren't there, don't rotate. The action is sparse and open enough for the C to handle.

The C should A) one-step open low or open high to get a good look between players, with the priority on opening low if at all possible, and B) not be in a hurry to go back to T if the L rotates to C's side. Stay and officiate! Two C's is not at all bad. The ball is moving to the basket in our game; never move away from where the ball is destined to go unless absolutely necessary. Get angles with subtle movements rather than big ones; it's easier to see plays when you're standing still rather than moving around. Besides, player motion is so erratic and constant in the modern game that the moment you try to get an angle it will probably disappear. So you might as well let the players create the angles for you. They always do.

The T can start in the traditional position, but as the lateral ball line moves in, move in with it. Should you need to transition to C, you'll be that much closer. And once you've moved in, even if you don't rotate to C, stay in, because the ball is probably still headed for the basket (the object is to score, after all). Only if the offense completely resets should the T back out and start over.

So there ya' go.

Could you please explain what "ball lines", "lateral ball lines", "open high", and "open low" are?

[APG]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

It's an NBA-ish philosophy (which all college officials will get to know and love if Joe DeRosa takes over for John Adams). Watch what Joe does, particularly once he becomes the C.

The philosophy starts with ball lines. Stay outside the ball lines; always be on the outside looking in.

As for L rotations, don't go simply based on quantity of players. Go because there's either something to officiate or (if you have a good feel for the game) because you anticipate there will be something to officiate. The keys to rotation are a competitive matchup in the post and/or a player on the opposite wing with a teammate either in the corner or moving to the corner. The latter key assumes the offense is setting up for a tray or a baseline drive, and you want to be there to either officiate strong-side rebounding or the drive to the basket. If the keys aren't there, don't rotate. The action is sparse and open enough for the C to handle.

The C should A) one-step open low or open high to get a good look between players, with the priority on opening low if at all possible, and B) not be in a hurry to go back to T if the L rotates to C's side. Stay and officiate! Two C's is not at all bad. The ball is moving to the basket in our game; never move away from where the ball is destined to go unless absolutely necessary. Get angles with subtle movements rather than big ones; it's easier to see plays when you're standing still rather than moving around. Besides, player motion is so erratic and constant in the modern game that the moment you try to get an angle it will probably disappear. So you might as well let the players create the angles for you. They always do.

The T can start in the traditional position, but as the lateral ball line moves in, move in with it. Should you need to transition to C, you'll be that much closer. And once you've moved in, even if you don't rotate to C, stay in, because the ball is probably still headed for the basket (the object is to score, after all). Only if the offense completely resets should the T back out and start over.

So there ya' go.

Been to the camp...this is pretty much on point.

I will say, as far as NBA-ish philosophies go...the keys for initiating as the lead aren't the same. The NBA philosophy is a lot more aggressive. I prefer the NBA's stance on rotations as the lead...but overall, the mechanics thought at the D3 camps are sound, and a great camp for those at all levels. I went to the camp the past two years (as BNR can attest to), and have gotten a lot from the camp.

Plus the food doesn't hurt.

[Rich]

I've had numerous discussions with fellow HS officials that say I rotate too much and it's interesting that I already have some of this philosophy. I always tell newer officials to not rely on a ball settling low to move - if you do that, you'll always be late rotating or plays will happen where you wish you were on the other side.


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[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Rich

I've had numerous discussions with fellow HS officials that say I rotate too much and it's interesting that I already have some of this philosophy. I always tell newer officials to not rely on a ball settling low to move - if you do that, you'll always be late rotating or plays will happen where you wish you were on the other side.


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Agree. In my somewhat limited 3.person experience, waiting for the ball to settling low makes you late to the play. In isn't as bad as 2-person since the c is in a much better spot to cover than the traditional, but all the better to be the as the play is forming rather than after it starts or is half way over.

[ODog]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Could you please explain what "ball lines", "lateral ball lines", "open high", and "open low" are?

I second this. I could make educated guesses, but I'd rather have them confirmed by those more experienced than I.

Soooo?

[NewNCref]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Could you please explain what "ball lines", "lateral ball lines", "open high", and "open low" are?

Okay, since there's some sort of D-3 Supercamp / ODAC party going on here, I decided to finally log in again and post something.

There are two ball lines at any given time. The first ball line passes through the ball and is parallel to the end line (this is what CC5 is referring to as the lateral ball line). The second passes through the ball and is parallel to the sideline. The goal is always to stay outside of the ball lines, but as CC5 points out, when the lateral ball line moves towards the baseline, so should the T.

In the C, "open high" means to step away from the baseline and referee that play from the top side. "Open low" means to step down towards the baseline, and referee that play from the bottom side.


Brief fanboy mode: I agree with others here that I wasn't totally on board with this the first time I learned it. But I'll be damned if I didn't get more plays right when I started applying their court coverage and rotation philosophies.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by NewNCref

...

In the C, "open high" means to step away from the baseline and referee that play from the top side. "Open low" means to step down towards the baseline, and referee that play from the bottom side.

...

And all things being equal, "open low" being his preferred option.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by NewNCref

Okay, since there's some sort of D-3 Supercamp / ODAC party going on here, I decided to finally log in again and post something.

There are two ball lines at any given time. The first ball line passes through the ball and is parallel to the end line (this is what CC5 is referring to as the lateral ball line). The second passes through the ball and is parallel to the sideline. The goal is always to stay outside of the ball lines, but as CC5 points out, when the lateral ball line moves towards the baseline, so should the T.

In the C, "open high" means to step away from the baseline and referee that play from the top side. "Open low" means to step down towards the baseline, and referee that play from the bottom side.


Brief fanboy mode: I agree with others here that I wasn't totally on board with this the first time I learned it. But I'll be damned if I didn't get more plays right when I started applying their court coverage and rotation philosophies.

So, what you are saying is that these are the same things many of us have been doing for years but someone has given them new words so that it sounds like some great new technique. In 5 or 6 years expect someone to coin another term for this and make it sound like something new and then use it to make those who don't know the new lingo sound like they are not keeping up with the "changes" in mechanics.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

So, what you are saying is that these are the same things many of us have been doing for years but someone has given them new words so that it sounds like some great new technique. In 5 or 6 years expect someone to coin another term for this and make it sound like something new and then use it to make those who don't know the new lingo sound like they are not keeping up with the "changes" in mechanics.

Yeah I don't see how this is an NBA philosophy, I see 90 percent of the college guys on TV doing this same thing. And when I go to camps I hear "mirror the ball" and "close down to the endline as Trail" and "it's ok to have two C's" and C always goes to the "open low" position when there is a shot on the wing. Sounds like different terminology for the same stuff.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Yeah I don't see how this is an NBA philosophy, I see 90 percent of the college guys on TV doing this same thing. And when I go to camps I hear "mirror the ball" and "close down to the endline as Trail" and "it's ok to have two C's" and C always goes to the "open low" position when there is a shot on the wing. Sounds like different terminology for the same stuff.

Exactly the terms I was thinking of... They mean exactly the same thing.