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-   -   Ohio State vs VCU (Video 3/3) (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/99548-ohio-state-vs-vcu-video-3-3-a.html)

Pantherdreams Thu Mar 19, 2015 05:51pm

Ohio State vs VCU (Video 3/3)
 
Charge and Block calls on consecutive possessions by Ohio State. Between 6-5 minute mark.

Sharpshooternes Thu Mar 19, 2015 05:57pm

Vacuum Ohio state offensive flagrant 1 after review.
 
5 minutes left in the game defender takes an elbow to the head trying to block a shot. No call at the time but play was stopped for a TO and he was bleeding a lot. Can you all walk me through the administration including differences in college from HS in regards to substitutions with injury, flagrant fouls, etc.

AremRed Thu Mar 19, 2015 06:03pm

I agree, lots of good plays in the 6-4 minute range. Three block/charge plays, an elbow play, and some smart commentary from Dan Bonner. He explained the LGP rule pretty accurately.

AremRed Thu Mar 19, 2015 06:22pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes (Post 958248)
5 minutes left in the game defender takes an elbow to the head trying to block a shot. No call at the time but play was stopped for a TO and he was bleeding a lot. Can you all walk me through the administration including differences in college from HS in regards to substitutions with injury, flagrant fouls, etc.

I'll speak to HS. If you call a common (offensive) foul for the elbow then you wipe the basket and give the ball to the fouled team. If you call an INT then you wipe the basket, have the fouled player shoot two free throws, and give the ball to the fouled team at the OOB location nearest where the foul occurred. Same thing if you call a flagrant and you disqualify the fouling player. If you don't call anything then you can't do anything after the fact except deal with the blood.

If you call an INT or Flagrant then you have to deal with the blood before the free throws. The coach can either take a timeout to keep his player in the game to shoot the free throws, or select a sub from the bench who will shoot the free throws. Same is true if you don't call anything and then notice the blood -- timeout to keep the player in the game or immediate sub.

crosscountry55 Thu Mar 19, 2015 06:58pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 958255)
If you call an INT then you wipe the basket, have the fouled player shoot two free throws, and give the ball to the fouled team at the OOB location nearest where the foul occurred.

In the actual game this stem from, the basket was never good, so a moot aspect. However, if I recall the replays correctly, the ball was released before the FF1 (INT in HS) contact. So let's suppose the basket was good. Didn't we have a discussion earlier this season that an intentional foul by an airborne shooter does not negate the basket like a PC foul does?

Provided there was an INT foul called on the floor in HS, I think (sadly, but factually) you'd have to count the basket before marching to the other end to shoot the INT foul FTs.

Not an issue in NCAAM because a foul by an airborne shooter can never be a PC foul; score the basket regardless. But what about NCAAW? Do you treat a FF1 on this play the same way you do an INT in HS, i.e. the basket is good even though had it been a PC foul it wouldn't have been?

crosscountry55 Thu Mar 19, 2015 07:17pm

Brain Fart
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by crosscountry55 (Post 958262)
In the actual game this stem from, the basket was never good, so a moot aspect. However, if I recall the replays correctly, the ball was released before the FF1 (INT in HS) contact. So let's suppose the basket was good. Didn't we have a discussion earlier this season that an intentional foul by an airborne shooter does not negate the basket like a PC foul does?

Provided there was an INT foul called on the floor in HS, I think (sadly, but factually) you'd have to count the basket before marching to the other end to shoot the INT foul FTs.

Not an issue in NCAAM because a foul by an airborne shooter can never be a PC foul; score the basket regardless. But what about NCAAW? Do you treat a FF1 on this play the same way you do an INT in HS, i.e. the basket is good even though had it been a PC foul it wouldn't have been?

Brain fart. Foul was on the offense. Causes the ball to become dead immediately. Duh. :o

Now had the ball entered the basket first somehow, and then the foul by the airborne shooter, now what do you have under the various rule sets?

AremRed Thu Mar 19, 2015 07:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by crosscountry55 (Post 958262)
In the actual game this stem from, the basket was never good, so a moot aspect. However, if I recall the replays correctly, the ball was released before the FF1 (INT in HS) contact. So let's suppose the basket was good. Didn't we have a discussion earlier this season that an intentional foul by an airborne shooter does not negate the basket like a PC foul does?

Provided there was an INT foul called on the floor in HS, I think (sadly, but factually) you'd have to count the basket before marching to the other end to shoot the INT foul FTs.

Under the HS ruleset which I limited my response to (and said so), the ball is dead immediately upon any player control foul. So unless the elbow happened after the ball passed through the basket I would wave it off.

MechanicGuy Thu Mar 19, 2015 07:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 958269)
Uh, the VCU player did make the layup on the player where he elbowed the OSU defender. And under the HS ruleset which I limited my response to (and said so), the ball is dead immediately upon any player control foul. So unless the elbow happened after the ball passed through the basket I would wave it off.

Nope.

AremRed Thu Mar 19, 2015 07:36pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MechanicGuy (Post 958271)
Nope.

Nevermind then. :)

APG Fri Mar 20, 2015 01:43pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams (Post 958245)
Charge and Block calls on consecutive possessions by Ohio State. Between 6-5 minute mark.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/8JA0PKSY0js" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Fj8cjDrC8xc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes (Post 958248)
5 minutes left in the game defender takes an elbow to the head trying to block a shot. No call at the time but play was stopped for a TO and he was bleeding a lot. Can you all walk me through the administration including differences in college from HS in regards to substitutions with injury, flagrant fouls, etc.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/nnsLTO86HNA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Raymond Fri Mar 20, 2015 02:00pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes (Post 958248)
5 minutes left in the game defender takes an elbow to the head trying to block a shot. No call at the time but play was stopped for a TO and he was bleeding a lot. Can you all walk me through the administration including differences in college from HS in regards to substitutions with injury, flagrant fouls, etc.

Your question is too broad, what specific type of play do you want to know about?

Camron Rust Fri Mar 20, 2015 02:02pm

#1...Block. It was very close and I wouldn't complain either way. I think the defender was still moving laterally into the path after the shooter left the floor.

#2...Block. Defender was moving towards the opponent at the time of contact. But, again, this was close. He wasn't moving forward much, but he was moving forward.

Raymond Fri Mar 20, 2015 02:10pm

#1) Beautiful mechanics and patience by the officials involved. PC was the right call.

#2) Good movement by the Lead to see the play. 50/50

#3) I could be talked into a FF1 upon review. Or live with the no-call.

Nevadaref Fri Mar 20, 2015 02:16pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 958269)
Under the HS ruleset which I limited my response to (and said so), the ball is dead immediately upon any player control foul. So unless the elbow happened after the ball passed through the basket I would wave it off.

Your first response was incorrect and so is your follow-up.
Under NFHS rules a player control foul MUST be a common foul. An intentional personal foul is not a common foul. Therefore, if the try is already released at the time of the intentional foul by the airborne shooter, then the basket would count.

APG Fri Mar 20, 2015 02:25pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 958467)
#1) Beautiful mechanics and patience by the officials involved. PC was the right call.

#2) Good movement by the Lead to see the play. 50/50

#3) I could be talked into a FF1 upon review. Or live with the no-call.

On point 1, the announcers wailed that one of the officials was about to call a block...the slot never looked like he was close to going block and simply had a fist in the air. Great mechanics to hold.

One point 3, the officials went to review and assessed a FF1


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