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-   -   The Dayton no-call (video) (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/99537-dayton-no-call-video.html)

JeffM Fri Mar 20, 2015 10:37pm

I think that is a great no call. I agree that this play is often called a foul, but it isn't always called a foul.

The shooter stepped into the defender and initiated contact with the arms. If the shooter went straight up with the intent of making the shot, he likely would have gotten the shot off without it being blocked.

AremRed Fri Mar 20, 2015 10:58pm

Based on what I've heard from college officials defenders get up to 30 degrees of arm down before they are really considered to be illegal. Just a rule of thumb I've heard.

Camron Rust Sat Mar 21, 2015 02:10am

Food for thought:

NCAA 4-40-3:

Quote:

Contact that does not hinder the opponent from participating in normal defensive or offensive movements shall be considered incidental.
(emphasis mine).

I do agree that the defender was several degrees short of fully vertical. However, did his position prevent normal movements by the shooter? Does the fact that the shooter jumped abnormally in hopes of a foul provide some amount of immunity to the defender?

Adam Sat Mar 21, 2015 08:36am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 958627)
Food for thought:

NCAA 4-40-3:

(emphasis mine).

I do agree that the defender was several degrees short of fully vertical. However, did his position prevent normal movements by the shooter? Does the fact that the shooter jumped abnormally in hopes of a foul provide some amount of immunity to the defender?

I think the shooter's jump moves the threshold.

BDevil15 Mon Mar 23, 2015 01:32pm

Also the replay gives us a slightly better angle on the defenders verticality than the Trails position. From his angle the defender looks more vertical than the angle we see on the second replay.

TheOracle Mon Mar 23, 2015 03:35pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 958627)
Food for thought:

NCAA 4-40-3:

(emphasis mine).

I do agree that the defender was several degrees short of fully vertical. However, did his position prevent normal movements by the shooter? Does the fact that the shooter jumped abnormally in hopes of a foul provide some amount of immunity to the defender?

Nobody is mentioning a very important element to this situation. The offensive player won this matchup. He got the defender off his feet and out of LGP in a pretty substantial way with the pump fake. He got caught being aggressive. He was clearly beaten by the pump fake.

People can argue whether it is good basketball to reward the shooter for blatantly jumping into the defender, but when an offensive player makes a good move to eliminate LGP, he has won the matchup, and has earned the opportunity to "draw the foul". You cannot reward the defense for getting beaten, the same way you cannot allow offensive players to jump into defenders with LGP and "draw a foul". That's why this is called over and over again, even on 3-point attempts, during the regular season, despite everybody hating it. Should have been called here, too.

Raymond Mon Mar 23, 2015 03:37pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOracle (Post 958930)
Nobody is mentioning a very important element to this situation. The offensive player won this matchup. He got the defender off his feet and out of LGP in a pretty substantial way with the pump fake. He got caught being aggressive. He was clearly beaten by the pump fake.
....

Except that the defender had landed and was stationary prior to A1 jumping into his arm.

hbk314 Mon Mar 23, 2015 03:39pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOracle (Post 958930)
Nobody is mentioning a very important element to this situation. The offensive player won this matchup. He got the defender off his feet and out of LGP in a pretty substantial way with the pump fake. He got caught being aggressive. He was clearly beaten by the pump fake.

People can argue whether it is good basketball to reward the shooter for blatantly jumping into the defender, but when an offensive player makes a good move to eliminate LGP, he has won the matchup, and has earned the opportunity to "draw the foul". You cannot reward the defense for getting beaten, the same way you cannot allow offensive players to jump into defenders with LGP and "draw a foul". That's why this is called over and over again, even on 3-point attempts, during the regular season, despite everybody hating it. Should have been called here, too.

The offensive player waited until the defensive player was no longer moving and, in the opinion of most posters here, sufficiently vertical. I'd suggest the offensive player waited too long or the defensive player was quick to stop his momentum.

jpgc99 Mon Mar 23, 2015 03:44pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by hbk314 (Post 958933)
The offensive player waited until the defensive player was no longer moving and, in the opinion of most posters here, sufficiently vertical. I'd suggest the offensive player waited too long or the defensive player was quick to stop his momentum.

Well stated.

bob jenkins Mon Mar 23, 2015 04:10pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOracle (Post 958930)
Nobody is mentioning a very important element to this situation.

There's a reason for that.

We all saw the fake draw the defense off the floor, but on this play, it didn't matter.

Adam Mon Mar 23, 2015 07:13pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOracle (Post 958930)
Nobody is mentioning a very important element to this situation. The offensive player won this matchup. He got the defender off his feet and out of LGP in a pretty substantial way with the pump fake. He got caught being aggressive. He was clearly beaten by the pump fake.

People can argue whether it is good basketball to reward the shooter for blatantly jumping into the defender, but when an offensive player makes a good move to eliminate LGP, he has won the matchup, and has earned the opportunity to "draw the foul". You cannot reward the defense for getting beaten, the same way you cannot allow offensive players to jump into defenders with LGP and "draw a foul". That's why this is called over and over again, even on 3-point attempts, during the regular season, despite everybody hating it. Should have been called here, too.

This was a great move to get a free, open shot. Instead, he launched into the defender and didn't hit him until the defender landed.

Mregor Tue Mar 24, 2015 08:15pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BryanV21 (Post 958365)
While the defender is not perfectly vertical, and may even be outside his own verticality, you can't dismiss the fact that the shooter is clearly jumping into the defender to try and draw a foul. By calling a shooting foul here you're bailing out the shooter.

^^^^^This. I think he (the defender) is awfully lucky the shooter didn't go up with the shot right away.

The contact was initiated by the shooter so I'm not too concerned with verticality here. True, the defender is not vertical and if the shooter hadn't jumped into the defender the whole play changes.

Rich Tue Mar 24, 2015 08:46pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mregor (Post 959088)
^^^^^This. I think he (the defender) is awfully lucky the shooter didn't go up with the shot right away.

The contact was initiated by the shooter so I'm not too concerned with verticality here. True, the defender is not vertical and if the shooter hadn't jumped into the defender the whole play changes.

You have to be concerned -- if I draw you off the floor and you're not vertical, of course I'm going to initiate contact with you. It's what good players do on a pump fake, after all. It's still a foul on the defense.

APG Tue Mar 24, 2015 08:59pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mregor (Post 959088)
^^^^^This. I think he (the defender) is awfully lucky the shooter didn't go up with the shot right away.

The contact was initiated by the shooter so I'm not too concerned with verticality here. True, the defender is not vertical and if the shooter hadn't jumped into the defender the whole play changes.

The shooter can initiate contact and still have a foul called on the defender.

Pantherdreams Wed Mar 25, 2015 07:57am

Going back to the OP I'm ok with the no call here. Defense didn't do anything wrong from the stand point of impeding or hindering the shot. Offense takes a wild flailing shot, jumps into defense. Any positioning faults by defense did not impact play or result.

For the rest maybe FIBA influence has me look at this differently but just because someone is in some way not vertical or outside their space, does not mean when there is contact it has to be a foul on them.

If a defender arm's aren't vertical but the offense doesn't hit their arms or contact in incidental and unrelated to the ball I'm not calling a foul on the defense because they weren't vertical.

If a defender has their arms out in front of them as a player comes barrelling in knocking their arms out of the way and running over a legal defender. I'm not calling a hand check because the offense ran into their hands first.

Most fouls IME call themselves, sometimes in collisions require you to make determination. I don't have anything on this play.


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