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Old Sat Mar 07, 2015, 09:54pm
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Duke vs North Carolina (2015) (Videos x2)

PC foul call by Bryan Kersey on Duke for an extended leg, about 1:05 first half on ESPN. Any possibility of a flagrant there?
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Old Sun Mar 08, 2015, 12:13am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bballref3966 View Post
PC foul call by Bryan Kersey on Duke for an extended leg, about 1:05 first half on ESPN. Any possibility of a flagrant there?


Review at 18:31

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Old Sun Mar 08, 2015, 01:02am
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#1. I don't have a flagrant there....I think the PC is enough.

#2. Sneaky foul with the leg...holding the UNC player from being able to get to the lose ball. It could have been a common foul but I don't see it as rising the the level of a flagrant.
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Old Sun Mar 08, 2015, 01:29am
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Play 1: Flagrant 1

Play 2: Common foul, but once you go to the monitor you either have to call a flagrant 1 or go with nothing.
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Old Sun Mar 08, 2015, 07:22am
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I like Camron's description. It was a sneaky (common) foul all right!

And just a PC on the first one.
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Old Sun Mar 08, 2015, 08:07am
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With the benefit of video review...Flagrant 1 in both instances wouldn't have been a surprise.

Interesting in #1...C had nothing. L was fortunate to have an unobstructed view and sold it well.
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Old Sun Mar 08, 2015, 09:32am
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I'm going to start with the 2nd, in which I had nothing upon first view. It just looked like legs got tangled. However, on later views I do see the hold with the legs, which could be a foul.

Now, in the first, I think we have a clear FF1. Since when is intentionally kicking another player simply a PC foul? I mean, it was obvious to me that the shooter meant to do it, as extending his leg had nothing to do with a normal shooting movement. Heck, doing so made him off balance upon landing, whereas if he shot normally his landing wouldn't have been a problem.

I'm not a college official, so this may be my ignorance on their rules. But in high school, I have an intentional foul.
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Old Sun Mar 08, 2015, 10:29am
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"Extending the leg" is mentioned in the rules as one of the ways in which the RA does not apply. And, there's no mention in that part of the rule about it being an automatic FF1 (at least in NCAAW, and from what I recall in MCAAM). So, even when the RA is not a consideration, I don't think we should have this move as being an automatic FF1.
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Old Sun Mar 08, 2015, 10:49am
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On the second one, if he had grabbed the waste in the same situation, it would be a supportable IF (FF1). I don't know the NCAA wording, but NFHS 4-19-3A, "Contact that neutralizes an opponent's obvious advantage." He's not making a play, he's holding an opponent so the opponent can't make a play.

Seems to me the perfect example of an IF based on that rule.
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Old Sun Mar 08, 2015, 12:54pm
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Originally Posted by Adam View Post
On the second one, if he had grabbed the waste
As officials, we always try to avoid picking up the dirty end of the stick. :0

And, on the play, if he had reached out an arm to impede the player, we'd have nothing other than a common foul.
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Old Sun Mar 08, 2015, 07:12pm
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Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
....And, on the play, if he had reached out an arm to impede the player, we'd have nothing other than a common foul.
Great point. I guess if the "kick" was done as a fighting or aggressive act, then a FF1/IF is warranted. Otherwise a PC is good, as is the case on this play.
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Old Mon Mar 09, 2015, 01:14am
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First play: I prefer FF1.

Second play: I'd prefer a common foul here, but I think FF1 is completely justifiable. Since common foul wasn't an option at the monitor, I have no issues with them going FF1.
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Old Mon Mar 09, 2015, 01:40am
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Originally Posted by BryanV21 View Post
Great point. I guess if the "kick" was done as a fighting or aggressive act, then a FF1/IF is warranted. Otherwise a PC is good, as is the case on this play.
What do the rules say? If you deem anything to be "fighting" it's an automatic flagrant (NFHS) or Flagrant 2 (NCAA). What we need to consider for an INT/F1 foul is whether or not the contact was excessive. By my view of this kick, it was absolutely excessive.
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Old Mon Mar 09, 2015, 02:34am
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Originally Posted by AremRed View Post
What do the rules say? If you deem anything to be "fighting" it's an automatic flagrant (NFHS) or Flagrant 2 (NCAA). What we need to consider for an INT/F1 foul is whether or not the contact was excessive. By my view of this kick, it was absolutely excessive.
I don't see this as a kick any more than using the forearm to push off as a punch. It was not a strike, it was simply used to push the player away in pretty much the same manner as any other push off. If, instead, he had jabbed or swung the foot (like swinging elbows), F1, sure, maybe even F2.
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Old Mon Mar 09, 2015, 02:44am
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Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
I don't see this as a kick any more than using the forearm to push off as a punch. It was not a strike, it was simply used to push the player away in pretty much the same manner as any other push off. If, instead, he had jabbed or swung the foot (like swinging elbows), F1, sure, maybe even F2.

I think there's a difference. Other than your own propulsion, there is nothing you can do with your foot on the basketball court that's legal. As much emphasis as we have placed on the hand check, a lot of it still goes on. You put your foot where it doesn't belong, even by accident, if there's contact, that's a foul. With that in mind, I see any deliberate contact with the foot/leg as excessive. I think both of these were deliberate.
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