NFHS 4.7.2c

[JeffM]

Originally Posted by rsl

In a tie game with less than a minute remaining, A1 drives toward the basket. B1 and B2 stand next to each other, with their nearest feet separated by about a foot. A1 attempts go between B1 and B2, and as he straddles B2's leg, B2 gives him a hip check and causes him to lose the ball out of bounds.

What is the call?

Based on 4.7.2c, I chose a no call on the foul and gave B the ball. But, even though 4.7.2c, gives A1 the greater responsibility for the contact, there is still contact by B2 on the ball handler.

It was not a well received call, so I thought I would ask you guys. When a ball handler dribbles into close quarters, how much is "greater responsibility"?

I think your no-call was a good no-call, assuming the hip check was minor. A foul on A1 could have been supported by rule, but the other officials might be the only other people in the gym who know it. You could have called a foul on B2 - he isn't allowed to hip check - but then A1 would have been rewarded for trying to split the defenders when there wasn't enough space.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JeffM

I think your no-call was a good no-call, assuming the hip check was minor. A foul on A1 could have been supported by rule, but the other officials might be the only other people in the gym who know it. You could have called a foul on B2 - he isn't allowed to hip check - but then A1 would have been rewarded for trying to split the defenders when there wasn't enough space.

If B1 needed to hipcheck A1 as he went through, then there was enough space.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by JeffM

A foul on A1 could have been supported by rule, but the other officials might be the only other people in the gym who know it.

I classify 4-7-2c under the "multiple foul" paradigm. There are some rule applications that are better left unapplied (especially if you're being evaluated).

I think your no-call intuition was good, although as you said, once you saw the defender shift his hip outside of his vertical plane and the resultant affect on ball handler RSBQ, you probably should have had a blocking foul on that defender.

Thanks for the post. Very teachable moment.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JeffM

A foul on A1 could have been supported by rule, but the other officials might be the only other people in the gym who know it.

I actually don't see anything in the OP that suggests a foul could be supported by rule against A1. I don't see anthing that tells us B1 was at all impacted by the contact, thus any contact by A1 is incidental.

B1, however....

[JeffM]

Originally Posted by Adam

I actually don't see anything in the OP that suggests a foul could be supported by rule against A1. I don't see anthing that tells us B1 was at all impacted by the contact, thus any contact by A1 is incidental.

B1, however....

c. There must be reasonable space between two defensive players or a defensive player and a boundary line to allow the dribbler to continue in his/her path. If there is less than 3 feet of space, the dribbler has the greater responsibility for the contact.

IMO...the rule allows the defenders to move laterally (not hip check) to guard the player. Since it was less than 3 feet, the dribbler has the greater responsibility of the contact and a foul on the dribbler in the OP could be supported by this rule, as long as the hip check was intended to close the gap rather than re-route the dribbler.

But, very few fans and players are aware of this rule. I was not aware of this rule until I became an official. Additionally, 3 feet is pretty wide for a basketball player to go between.

Calling a foul on B would not be questioned.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JeffM

c. There must be reasonable space between two defensive players or a defensive player and a boundary line to allow the dribbler to continue in his/her path. If there is less than 3 feet of space, the dribbler has the greater responsibility for the contact.

IMO...the rule allows the defenders to move laterally (not hip check) to guard the player. Since it was less than 3 feet, the dribbler has the greater responsibility of the contact and a foul on the dribbler in the OP could be supported by this rule, as long as the hip check was intended to close the gap rather than re-route the dribbler.

But, very few fans and players are aware of this rule. I was not aware of this rule until I became an official. Additionally, 3 feet is pretty wide for a basketball player to go between.

Calling a foul on B would not be questioned.

No where in this rule does it say contact is automatically a foul. The incidental contact rule still applies, and if B1 is not adversely affected by the contact, then by rule you cannot call a foul on A1.

[JeffM]

Originally Posted by Adam

No where in this rule does it say contact is automatically a foul. The incidental contact rule still applies, and if B1 is not adversely affected by the contact, then by rule you cannot call a foul on A1.

That would make sense. I just hadn't heard that the defender being adversely impacted was the deciding factor on whether to call the foul on the offense.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JeffM

That would make sense. I just hadn't heard that the defender being adversely impacted was the deciding factor on whether to call the foul on the offense.

It's another way of wording the incidental contact rule.

"Contact which does not.... should be ruled incidental."

I don't have my book with me, so I'm hesitant to try to replicate the wording. Essentially, anything that doesn't hinder the opponent from participating in normal offensive or defensive movement is incidental.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JeffM

c. There must be reasonable space between two defensive players or a defensive player and a boundary line to allow the dribbler to continue in his/her path. If there is less than 3 feet of space, the dribbler has the greater responsibility for the contact.

IMO...the rule allows the defenders to move laterally (not hip check) to guard the player. Since it was less than 3 feet, the dribbler has the greater responsibility of the contact and a foul on the dribbler in the OP could be supported by this rule, as long as the hip check was intended to close the gap rather than re-route the dribbler.

But, very few fans and players are aware of this rule. I was not aware of this rule until I became an official. Additionally, 3 feet is pretty wide for a basketball player to go between.

Calling a foul on B would not be questioned.

That rule doesn't really change how any situation would be called if that rule were not present. It is only drawing your attention to the fact that, when the space is limited, the offensive player may need to create contact to squeeze through and, if they do, the foul should be on them.

It clarifies the fact that nothing about the rules requires that either defender in such a case must take the contact in the center of the chest if they were in their spots legally. Contact with one or both legally positioned defenders' shoulders/sides/hips/etc. because the space was so tight is not a foul on the defense.

It doesn't, however, change the requirements of legal guarding which prohibit moving towards the opponent at the time of contact. If the shooter/dribbler is going through and already is in the space, movement to close the gap (hip check or otherwise) is not legal defense.

[JeffM]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

That rule doesn't really change how any situation would be called if that rule were not present. It is only drawing your attention to the fact that, when the space is limited, the offensive player may need to create contact to squeeze through and, if they do, the foul should be on them.

It clarifies the fact that nothing about the rules requires that either defender in such a case must take the contact in the center of the chest if they were in their spots legally. Contact with one or both legally positioned defenders' shoulders/sides/hips/etc. because the space was so tight is not a foul on the defense.

It doesn't, however, change the requirements of legal guarding which prohibit moving towards the opponent at the time of contact. If the shooter/dribbler is going through and already is in the space, movement to close the gap (hip check or otherwise) is not legal defense.

Thanks

[rsl]

Originally Posted by JeffM

Calling a foul on B would not be questioned.

This is very true, and my no-call was questioned because everyone in the gym saw the hip. We can't make calls based on how they will be received, but a foul on B would have been a safer call.

Thanks for the discussion. I'll take this as a learning experience.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rsl

This is very true, and my no-call was questioned because everyone in the gym saw the hip. We can't make calls based on how they will be received, but a foul on B would have been a safer call.

Thanks for the discussion. I'll take this as a learning experience.

You're right not to worry about what's "safer" 99% of the time. Fortunately, this time the safer call is the right call (by rule).

Good topic for a lot of people to learn from.