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-   -   UNC/Duke (Video) (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/99342-unc-duke-video.html)

VaTerp Fri Feb 20, 2015 12:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 955566)
It was that very same camera angle that confirmed it was a foul for me....the backside of the defenders triceps comes down on the arm of the shooter.
Good catch. I did not see that contact until you mentioned it.

so cal lurker Fri Feb 20, 2015 01:27pm
[QUOTE=Pantherdreams;955569]
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny d (Post 955501)
Moving backwards and leaning backwards are two different things. QUOTE]

I don't think they are in this context.

If the player had established LGP but leaned forward outside their LGP to initate contact with a shooter we would argue he moved into the shooter.

If they player in LGP wishes to lean backward to protect themselves or to move away from the contact they should get the same application of "move".

It doesn't make sense to say" You can't move into the shooter, so no leaning forward because you are moving into them but also say, you can move backwards but no leaning away from them because leaning is not moving.
I *suspect* that the reasoning is something along the lines of the following: Starting to fall back is faking a foul before it happens and makes refs look bad. So we're going to punish that faking by saying once you start faking it, you're no longer in LGP because you aren't guarding any more you're just trying to make me look bad.

Pantherdreams Fri Feb 20, 2015 01:54pm
[QUOTE=so cal lurker;955575]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pantherdreams (Post 955569)

I *suspect* that the reasoning is something along the lines of the following: Starting to fall back is faking a foul before it happens and makes refs look bad. So we're going to punish that faking by saying once you start faking it, you're no longer in LGP because you aren't guarding any more you're just trying to make me look bad.
I don't agree with that either, but if that is your rationale then call the T for faking being fouled. Problem is faking being fouled requires you to believe the only reason they would fall/lean is gain an advantage. You are basically risking T'ing a kid up for being a pu$$y or concussion prone. Any number of legal reasons to protect yourself. Which I assume is why they won't call the T because they can't confirm it, and don't want to deal with the fall out so they cal blocks (make up rules) in hopes the player will stop doing it.

Raymond Fri Feb 20, 2015 02:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 955566)
It was that very same camera angle that confirmed it was a foul for me....the backside of the defenders triceps comes down on the arm of the shooter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by VaTerp (Post 955570)
Good catch. I did not see that contact until you mentioned it.
I have that as incidental contact. I called a foul on a similar play at the end of a game recently and I have wanted that call back after seeing some (poor) video of the play.

VaTerp Fri Feb 20, 2015 03:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 955580)
I have that as incidental contact. I called a foul on a similar play at the end of a game recently and I have wanted that call back after seeing some (poor) video of the play.
That contact occurs just prior to him blocking the ball and impacts the shooter enough that a foul is justified.

I would not argue had it been a no call though.

bob jenkins Fri Feb 20, 2015 03:24pm
[QUOTE=Pantherdreams;955577]
Quote:
Originally Posted by so cal lurker (Post 955575)

I don't agree with that either, but if that is your rationale then call the T for faking being fouled.
Is that allowed in NCAAM? It's specifically NOT allowed in NCAAW. (It's different from HS)

johnny d Fri Feb 20, 2015 03:31pm
[QUOTE=Pantherdreams;955577]
Quote:
Originally Posted by so cal lurker (Post 955575)

I don't agree with that either, but if that is your rationale then call the T for faking being fouled. Problem is faking being fouled requires you to believe the only reason they would fall/lean is gain an advantage. You are basically risking T'ing a kid up for being a pu$$y or concussion prone. Any number of legal reasons to protect yourself. Which I assume is why they won't call the T because they can't confirm it, and don't want to deal with the fall out so they cal blocks (make up rules) in hopes the player will stop doing it.
Like I said in one of my earlier posts, I really don't care what the reason or reasons are for calling it a particular way. The only thing that concerns me, especially at the NCAA level, is that I officiate these plays how every coordinator I have ever worked for expects me to call them, so that I continue to get games. Outside of that, it is just mental gymnastics that I don't have the time or energy to waste.

Raymond Fri Feb 20, 2015 03:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by VaTerp (Post 955587)
That contact occurs just prior to him blocking the ball and impacts the shooter enough that a foul is justified.

I would not argue had it been a no call though.
That's very similar to the play I had, except in my case on defender got all ball causing a double clutch, then the other defender got him across the forearm.

I'm still torn on that play.

Camron Rust Fri Feb 20, 2015 04:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 955580)
I have that as incidental contact. I called a foul on a similar play at the end of a game recently and I have wanted that call back after seeing some (poor) video of the play.
Smacking the arm of a shooter that hasn't released the ball is incidental contact?

I might agree if it was the off arm but the ball is in both hands and without it, he can't even get to the ball (which he barely touched). I don't know how that can be incidental even under the most liberal application of the concept.

so cal lurker Fri Feb 20, 2015 06:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 955599)
Smacking the arm of a shooter that hasn't released the ball is incidental contact?

I might agree if it was the off arm but the ball is in both hands and without it, he can't even get to the ball (which he barely touched). I don't know how that can be incidental even under the most liberal application of the concept.
How tall was the shooter? I've learned in my son's middle school games that the general rule is a player who is 6" or more shorter than the shooter is allowed to slap the arm because otherwise it isn't fair since he's not tall enough to reach the ball. :rolleyes: (Can you tell my son is the tall kid?)

Raymond Fri Feb 20, 2015 10:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 955599)
Smacking the arm of a shooter that hasn't released the ball is incidental contact?

I might agree if it was the off arm but the ball is in both hands and without it, he can't even get to the ball (which he barely touched). I don't know how that can be incidental even under the most liberal application of the concept.
Smacking? With his tricep? I think you have me beat with liberal interpretation. ;)

Camron Rust Sat Feb 21, 2015 04:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 955621)
Smacking? With his tricep? I think you have me beat with liberal interpretation. ;)
It is there in the video whether you choose to see it or not. The official on the floor saw it and called it.

AremRed Sat Feb 21, 2015 08:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 955633)
It is there in the video whether you choose to see it or not. The official on the floor saw it and called it.
I doubt that is what the official saw and why he called the foul.

Raymond Sat Feb 21, 2015 09:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 955633)
It is there in the video whether you choose to see it or not. The official on the floor saw it and called it.
You don't why the official called the foul, unless you have talked to him about the call. Additionally, unless you have spoken to this official, you have no idea what his feelings were about the call after he reviewed the video. And to say that contact was a "smack" is being less than honest, or a prime example of hyperbole.

But it is most definitely arrogant of you to say I choose not to see it.

BillyMac Sat Feb 21, 2015 12:00pm
Mr. Baumgartner, My High School English Teacher, Would Be Proud Of Me ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 955652)
... to say that contact was a "smack" is being less than honest, or an prime example of hyperbole.
Or, it could be a prime example of onomatopoeia.


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